Do you not understand the point of the video? The senses are in conflict & the brain has to make sense of what it sees Vs what it hears.
Now tell me how this relates to what we are talking about here? Does my box move & cause some confusion in the senses? Does it look like it should produce a really high-end sound? Ask SY about this! Exactly what is your point?
Now tell me how this relates to what we are talking about here? Does my box move & cause some confusion in the senses? Does it look like it should produce a really high-end sound? Ask SY about this! Exactly what is your point?
whew - lots of smoke, no heat.
Guys, lets just take it as read - a claim has been made. Its basis has been stated. Some will accept that basis as valid, others will not.
Some will ask for further validation, others will be happy with what there is. Still others will insist that validation is impossible or the act of validation will corrupt the ability to perceive the claim.
None will bend to accept the stand of the other. Its the nature of the personalities involved and the argument being had.
Now its descended to the level of playground taunting, it may be a good time to reflect on the value of continuing...
M2CW - if someone finds that ANY item improves their enjoyment of a passtime, who am I to rob them of that enjoyment?
And if someone suggests I try something that has a small cost (financial, time or emotional...) I would accept that too.
If however someone is selling me something or making a claim for something that seems, on the face of it, unlikely or incredible, I should question it. Politely.
And if I'm the one making the claim, I should substantiate it. Politely.
Enjoy!
Guys, lets just take it as read - a claim has been made. Its basis has been stated. Some will accept that basis as valid, others will not.
Some will ask for further validation, others will be happy with what there is. Still others will insist that validation is impossible or the act of validation will corrupt the ability to perceive the claim.
None will bend to accept the stand of the other. Its the nature of the personalities involved and the argument being had.
Now its descended to the level of playground taunting, it may be a good time to reflect on the value of continuing...
M2CW - if someone finds that ANY item improves their enjoyment of a passtime, who am I to rob them of that enjoyment?
And if someone suggests I try something that has a small cost (financial, time or emotional...) I would accept that too.
If however someone is selling me something or making a claim for something that seems, on the face of it, unlikely or incredible, I should question it. Politely.
And if I'm the one making the claim, I should substantiate it. Politely.
Enjoy!
what horizon? The earth is a flat plate riding on the back of four elephants that in turn ride on a fleet of turtles.
We know this over here because people leave New Zealand and never come back... Clearly, they have gone over the edge and fallen to their doom.
Some say they leave for a better life in another country, but I feel my explanation is far more plausible. And interesting.
We know this over here because people leave New Zealand and never come back... Clearly, they have gone over the edge and fallen to their doom.
Some say they leave for a better life in another country, but I feel my explanation is far more plausible. And interesting.
That's exactly the premise on which this thread was started despite being derailed numerous times by TRolls. As Sendler said not one person tried it in 20+ pages - that's a lot of hot air!. I really don't understand the great reluctance.
Now we are talking about the modified Hiface which anyone can try - the details I posted on DIYA - again it's a minimal cost experiment!
I have produced independent scope shots; I have cited numerous posts from individuals attesting to what they hear; I have provided the unit & attenuators to SY. I really don't know why all this trolling is allowed particularly when it is personal attacks.
Well, the answer is to not feed the trolls. I applaud your assisting SY (the thinking man's cynic imho) make the measurements he does so well. THe other stuff you've provided, while interesting, will by its nature raise the blood pressure of objectivists. Not saying its wrong, just that it doesn't meet a high standard of independance or objectivity.
In the end however, the sound is listened to LARGELY subjectively, so wtf. If it sounds good to you, thats what matters. Hell, 5,000,000 SET amps can't be all bad...
I would concur with this view - I would query the wisdom of using such DACs as the listening devices. The Benchmark DCX2496 has been analysed & found wanting. I would wonder about listening to a PC DAC. Sy, you might want to address these?
If you mean the scope shots, I'm not sure why you think they are not of a high standard - Joseph K's test set-up is described in detail early on in this thread & Mike Galusha's set-up is described elsewhere, I believe. As for the rest, it is intended for those that trust their ears.aardvarkash10 said:
Well of course sound is subjective - like a lot of things that we take pleasure in - why would we want it any other way?
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I believe this post on the enable thread is an interesting & cogent read http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/119677-enabl-technical-discussion-91.html#post2352732
Hi Sy,
So, what are you going to measure then?
I mean measurements should be meaningful to illustrate and quantify the subject.
I mean I can take a scope and look at the output from two different CD-Players and pronounce "they look the same". Of course, I would have perfectly wasted my time.
L8er T
So, what are you going to measure then?
I mean measurements should be meaningful to illustrate and quantify the subject.
I mean I can take a scope and look at the output from two different CD-Players and pronounce "they look the same". Of course, I would have perfectly wasted my time.
L8er T
Sy!
DON'T EVER do that again. Please? You made me laugh so hard, I probably nearly got a heart attack and several co-workes gave me strange glances to see if I was finally loosing my marbles and was going postal.
I have not laughed so much since seeing the advertisement fort the "teleportation tweak", but this is better!
Ciao T
DON'T EVER do that again. Please? You made me laugh so hard, I probably nearly got a heart attack and several co-workes gave me strange glances to see if I was finally loosing my marbles and was going postal.
I have not laughed so much since seeing the advertisement fort the "teleportation tweak", but this is better!
Ciao T
Of which the most educating is the TIE trend trace and the phase noise plot, here zoomed in:
It's educating, for me, because the TIE trend trace is almost an exact copy of the Hiface clock power supply scope trace posted earlier by Jkeny.. The same 80 khz modulation pops up also here, plus some more low freq periodicity.
It's educating, for me, because the TIE trend trace is almost an exact copy of the Hiface clock power supply scope trace posted earlier by Jkeny.. The same 80 khz modulation pops up also here, plus some more low freq periodicity.
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Hi,
Completely agreed. Though in my case simply because I cannot muster the slightest shred of respect of what Sy proposes as "Measurement Equipment" and his listening tests will carry so much expectation bias, much more gross differences will produce a Null.
Again, what I do need to ask, why make meaningless test, without adequate test gear, make blind listening tests without sufficient calibration etc.
Sure, it is all good fun, but I for sure would not be keen to write about it, as I would be aware of the futility of it and convinced some Subjectivist/Objectivist like me (short SOB) would come along and berate me (quite rightly too) for it.
With this "Measurement Gear". Yup. I mean Sy is really good at making funny jokes.
An AP2 is not good enough for serious jitter measurements, though it would likely show up what what J-Kenny does.
Good, then why don't you go and buy the best and most technologically advanced hifi gear on the planet? I am sure B*se will point out their stuff measures well if you use that sort of test gear.
He is hamming up big time, so why should not I?
In the case of Sy I have long given up any hope. As for beliefs, I have no use for faith, belief and such modes of the human mind, I shall leave them to such as you and Sy. I never believe anything.
You mean given that Sy's teat gear is woefully inadequate I should offer to do the tests instead?
I'd love to old man, but I can't, contractual obligations.
Ciao T
Completely agreed. Though in my case simply because I cannot muster the slightest shred of respect of what Sy proposes as "Measurement Equipment" and his listening tests will carry so much expectation bias, much more gross differences will produce a Null.
Again, what I do need to ask, why make meaningless test, without adequate test gear, make blind listening tests without sufficient calibration etc.
Sure, it is all good fun, but I for sure would not be keen to write about it, as I would be aware of the futility of it and convinced some Subjectivist/Objectivist like me (short SOB) would come along and berate me (quite rightly too) for it.
With this "Measurement Gear". Yup. I mean Sy is really good at making funny jokes.
An AP2 is not good enough for serious jitter measurements, though it would likely show up what what J-Kenny does.
Good, then why don't you go and buy the best and most technologically advanced hifi gear on the planet? I am sure B*se will point out their stuff measures well if you use that sort of test gear.
He is hamming up big time, so why should not I?
In the case of Sy I have long given up any hope. As for beliefs, I have no use for faith, belief and such modes of the human mind, I shall leave them to such as you and Sy. I never believe anything.
You mean given that Sy's teat gear is woefully inadequate I should offer to do the tests instead?
I'd love to old man, but I can't, contractual obligations.
Ciao T
Hi,
Nice plots! What 'scope you got? Looks like I need one.
BTW, Sy and myself where refering to looking at the analogue output from a DAC following the HiFace. In Sy's case the DAC being a Behringer DCX2496 DSP based crossover with a nice Cirrus Logic ASRC on the input to propperly louse things up for good measure.
Ciao T
Nice plots! What 'scope you got? Looks like I need one.
BTW, Sy and myself where refering to looking at the analogue output from a DAC following the HiFace. In Sy's case the DAC being a Behringer DCX2496 DSP based crossover with a nice Cirrus Logic ASRC on the input to propperly louse things up for good measure.
Ciao T
A TEK 7354. 35 000 Euro, in case You wanted to ask... Stock, without the jitter analysis package. That can cost another 10000 in a worst case..
Short of the story: recently we had been looking for candidates for a possible investment, at my job, not me, naturally!
So I had tested some middle-heavy weight modern beasts - was a joyride.. The most beautiful one was a LEcroy WavePro 760.
6 Ghz/ 40Gsps. Though today it is "low end", their top one is 45GHz/ 120Gsps..
We had concluded that Lecroy is having really interesting offers, - very strange, normally I would have never thought of voting against a Tek scope..
The sad side of the story is that the fun had finished there - now will have to wait until the order arrives. That is, no more tests for the moment.
Short of the story: recently we had been looking for candidates for a possible investment, at my job, not me, naturally!
So I had tested some middle-heavy weight modern beasts - was a joyride.. The most beautiful one was a LEcroy WavePro 760.
6 Ghz/ 40Gsps. Though today it is "low end", their top one is 45GHz/ 120Gsps..
We had concluded that Lecroy is having really interesting offers, - very strange, normally I would have never thought of voting against a Tek scope..
The sad side of the story is that the fun had finished there - now will have to wait until the order arrives. That is, no more tests for the moment.
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Thorsten - yes, I had followed the thread, and know what are You talking about.
Also what Sy is talking about. That is why I wanted to post these few shots, to show that "at the source", at the input of his DAC providing his results, there are real differences in the incoming SPDIF data.
And this thread is about characterization of the SPDIF transmitter unit, that is, the resulting SPDIF stream, not the DAC output.
One can just not guess what will be connected to this stream.
If somebody is interested, I'm more than willing to explain more about these graphs. It's fun to see easily all the up to now "suspected" effects - being just that, effects existing really..
Also what Sy is talking about. That is why I wanted to post these few shots, to show that "at the source", at the input of his DAC providing his results, there are real differences in the incoming SPDIF data.
And this thread is about characterization of the SPDIF transmitter unit, that is, the resulting SPDIF stream, not the DAC output.
One can just not guess what will be connected to this stream.
If somebody is interested, I'm more than willing to explain more about these graphs. It's fun to see easily all the up to now "suspected" effects - being just that, effects existing really..
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