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Old 18th June 2003, 10:37 PM   #141
SY is offline SY  United States
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Bonus question: what's the unit of entropy when you use base-10 logs?
2.303 nats.

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I do know, though, that entropy is a measure of either
the amount of order or disorder in thermodynamics (can't
remember which)
Disorder. You info theory guys crack me up. Any schoolkid knows that entropy is the integral of dQ/T. And it's measured in kcal/g-mole-Kelvins.
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Old 18th June 2003, 10:53 PM   #142
Rob M is offline Rob M  United States
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Originally posted by SY

2.303 nats.
= 1 Hartley.

Occasionally you'll see someone refer to a bit as a "Shannon", but that never caught on.

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You info theory guys crack me up. Any schoolkid knows that entropy is the integral of dQ/T.
As far as I know, Shannon used the term "entropy" for information content as kind of a pun, just because the formula looked a lot like the one familiar from thermodynamics. It was only later that it turned out not to be a coincidence at all.

Anyone who's interested in digital communication (and *definitely* anyone who teaches CS!) ought to take a look at Shannon's original papers. They're really quite amazing, and available online.

http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/ms/what/s...day/paper.html
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Old 19th June 2003, 12:38 AM   #143
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"patent on his newly invented three-value bits"

Please tell me this is an attempt at humor and that you know the difference between the analog output voltage of a DAC and the digital input. If you are honestly that confused, I can only assume your are joking about the Ph.D. or need to do a lot of reading before even attempting to offer an opinion here. This is really not meant to funny, its just sad..........
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Old 19th June 2003, 01:09 AM   #144
SY is offline SY  United States
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Please tell me that certain solitary activities to which most of us have been prone have not damaged your eyes so much that they can't see that the waveform you took from the Stereophile site has three distinct values of DAC output.
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Old 19th June 2003, 01:13 AM   #145
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Originally posted by SY
Please tell me that certain solitary activities to which most of us have been prone have not damaged your eyes so much that they can't see that the waveform you took from the Stereophile site has three distinct values of DAC output.
Oh, it's your eyes that get damaged? Then what's causing all this hair on my palms?

se
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Old 19th June 2003, 01:18 AM   #146
SY is offline SY  United States
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Oh, it's your eyes that get damaged? Then what's causing all this hair on my palms?
Late for a meeting of the Philatelists' Club?


(Christer: warning, obscure '60s American cultural reference)
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Old 19th June 2003, 01:24 AM   #147
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Originally posted by SY
Late for a meeting of the Philatelists' Club?


se
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Old 19th June 2003, 01:25 AM   #148
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So what's all this three-state bits stuff, anyhow? Sorry, I seem to have lost the context on that one.

se
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Old 19th June 2003, 01:38 AM   #149
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nats!

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[i]Disorder. You info theory guys crack me up. Any schoolkid knows that entropy is the integral of dQ/T. And it's measured in kcal/g-mole-Kelvins. [/B]
SY
don't forget to make that Q reversible.

I don't see anything wrong with Shannon's def of entropy of a probability distribution p:

S(p)=-Sigma(n) pn log(pn)


this discussion reminds me of my discussions with my Korean postdoc colleague that sits at its desk reading articles and then comes up with 'new ideas' at the group meeting ideas we tried years ago and that didn't work. He force me to be the Fred of the situation and re-explain to my boss why stuff didn't work and why we shouldn't pursue this crap further, half the stuff I myself can't remember anymore.
What I am getting back from the guy is a bunch of according to this paper blah blah blah, according to that paper blah blah blah. The guy hasn't grasped the simple concept that papers, books and other academic treaties are often the result of the need for grant approval, tenure promotion, sometimes genuine intellectual curiosity, and are very rarely generally applicable.
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Old 19th June 2003, 02:00 AM   #150
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grataku: Let's just say that my post-doc experience was not too different

Qrev, yes, but easier to write k ln w.

all: Anyone who doubts that an undithered sampling system can resolve a +/-1/2 bit sinewave should look at Vanderkooy and Lipshitz's JAES paper (March 1984). The paper's purpose was to quantitate the distortion-reducing effect of dither, but it shows waveforms and spectra of undithered for comparison. The spectrum shows a 1kHz fundamental and a lot of harmonics, just like Fred's helpful Stereophile graph. They didn't find it remarkable that their control data were exactly what anyone who understands sampling theory would expect, like someone measuring a current through a resistor and finding that it followed Ohm's Law.

Apparently they know how to use their software. And understand the theory.
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