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Old 19th September 2009, 12:25 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by panomaniac View Post
Not in the same way, no. But they sure can effect it! Since the receiver chip has to derive the clock from the spdif or AES signal, bad cables can make a mess of it. I keep a few around here just for demo purposes. Both coax and optical.

The most expensive cables are not always the best, either. Radio Shack actually sells some decent ones.
I agree completely, many do sound different and it's not very subtle sometimes. I make my own now, tried Monster, Dayton audio, Radio Shack, Philips,and a couple others. I'm too much of a cheapskate to buy a $200 boutique cable but I assure you cables make a difference. Buy a few cheap ones to try and trust your ears, that's what matters anyway. Check out www.bluejeanscables.com .

Best, Bill
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Old 19th September 2009, 02:29 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Bill Fuss View Post
I agree completely, many do sound different and it's not very subtle sometimes. I make my own now, tried Monster, Dayton audio, Radio Shack, Philips,and a couple others. I'm too much of a cheapskate to buy a $200 boutique cable but I assure you cables make a difference. Buy a few cheap ones to try and trust your ears, that's what matters anyway. Check out www.bluejeanscables.com .

Best, Bill
... or get a decent DAC. A DAC that lets you hear all sorts of different cables isn't that good, is it?

jd
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Old 19th September 2009, 03:15 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by janneman View Post
... or get a decent DAC. A DAC that lets you hear all sorts of different cables isn't that good, is it?

jd
That's not helpful to anyone. This is, after all, a DIY forum.
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Old 19th September 2009, 03:45 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Bill Fuss View Post
That's not helpful to anyone. This is, after all, a DIY forum.
Well, yes, I was trying to get some people to realize that the search for the inaudible cable is over once you have a decent DAC. You can also diy a DAC, no?
I hoped it was helpfull, but if not, I apologize.

jd
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Old 19th September 2009, 04:23 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by janneman View Post
Well, yes, I was trying to get some people to realize that the search for the inaudible cable is over once you have a decent DAC. You can also diy a DAC, no?
I hoped it was helpfull, but if not, I apologize.

jd
No apology is necessary, and I agree with you for the most part. Apparently the reciever chips and their implementation are improving so much these days they are more tolerant of imperfect signals. I don't know beans about digital but my ears know audio pretty well, and I still hear differences with the cheaper cables. I'm sure there is science behind it but I'm not well versed in digital technology.

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Old 19th September 2009, 04:54 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Bill Fuss View Post
No apology is necessary, and I agree with you for the most part. Apparently the reciever chips and their implementation are improving so much these days they are more tolerant of imperfect signals. I don't know beans about digital but my ears know audio pretty well, and I still hear differences with the cheaper cables. I'm sure there is science behind it but I'm not well versed in digital technology.

Best, Bill
I think it's just logic. If the cable causes audible differences in your DAC, obviously your DAC is sensitive to RF or jitter or what. Might be worthwhile to try out a different DAC, where those cables don't make any or much less differences. Unless of course you sell cables

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Old 19th September 2009, 08:16 PM   #17
CosmoA is offline CosmoA  United States
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Well, yes, I was trying to get some people to realize that the search for the inaudible cable is over once you have a decent DAC.

I wish... same goes for USB cables. It is sort hierarchical. Is the DAC front end good enough not to spit stuff back into the interface causing EMI and jitter. Is the DAC terminated with a decent resistive load impedance of the correct value. Is the cable the right impedance and direction.

I spent several years designing (and listening was a BIG part) SPDIF cables, pulse transformers, differential analog buffers to reject common noise and minimize signal reflections. The better you get the interface the more you can hear the difference between good cables. You know we went through all this before with large data FIFOs in some of the Mark Levinson equipment and Genesis. You could still hear cable differences. Hell it took years before people stopped making 1/2 meter cables ( the kiss of death for the refections to show up at the logic transistion of HCMOS drivers. The devil in the design details.

The SPDIF interface is like the weather... every one complains but nobody does anything about it. Or they put 50 ohm BNC connectors with 9 inches of twisted pair wire to the unbuffered SPDIF receiver and brag that they don't use those nasty RCA connectors.
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Old 19th September 2009, 11:01 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by CosmoA View Post
Well, yes, I was trying to get some people to realize that the search for the inaudible cable is over once you have a decent DAC.

I wish... same goes for USB cables. It is sort hierarchical. Is the DAC front end good enough not to spit stuff back into the interface causing EMI and jitter. Is the DAC terminated with a decent resistive load impedance of the correct value. Is the cable the right impedance and direction.

I spent several years designing (and listening was a BIG part) SPDIF cables, pulse transformers, differential analog buffers to reject common noise and minimize signal reflections. The better you get the interface the more you can hear the difference between good cables. You know we went through all this before with large data FIFOs in some of the Mark Levinson equipment and Genesis. You could still hear cable differences. Hell it took years before people stopped making 1/2 meter cables ( the kiss of death for the refections to show up at the logic transistion of HCMOS drivers. The devil in the design details.

The SPDIF interface is like the weather... every one complains but nobody does anything about it. Or they put 50 ohm BNC connectors with 9 inches of twisted pair wire to the unbuffered SPDIF receiver and brag that they don't use those nasty RCA connectors.
Try a Benchmark DAC. No difference between boutique cables and anything else that maintains a galvanic connection.

But hey, I'm not in this stuff, so I'll shut up.

jd
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Old 20th September 2009, 10:36 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fuss View Post
...... many do sound different ...........I assure you cables make a difference. Buy a few cheap ones to try and trust your ears,...........
Quote:
Originally Posted by janneman View Post
... or get a decent DAC. A DAC that lets you hear all sorts of different cables isn't that good, is it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by janneman View Post
Well, yes, I was trying to get some people to realize that the search for the inaudible cable is over once you have a decent DAC. You can also diy a DAC, .......
Quote:
Originally Posted by janneman View Post
I think it's just logic. If the cable causes audible differences in your DAC, obviously your DAC is sensitive to RF or jitter or what. Might be worthwhile to try out a different DAC, where those cables don't make any or much less differences...........
yes, if the cable changes the sound from the transmitter or into the receiver then it's not the cable that is at fault. Find and cure the problem with the electronics either side of the cable.
This applies just as much to analogue as to digital transmission.
Unless the cable is so far from the norm that it is deliberately EQing the signal transfer.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 05:01 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by dangus View Post
If you believe the crazy people, digital interconnects affect sound quality
This depends on how the DAC deals with imperfection of the signal or transmission-induced noise. If the DAC recovers the embedded clock of AES/EBU or S/PDIF, then it is highly likely that the reconstructed analog waveforms will be different, hence sonically discernable.

Airforce rader-watching personnels are trained to detect any suspecious objects on the radar screen. Similarly, Navy sonar-monitoring personnels can distinguish whale's speech from military artifacts.

This is about human's signal-noise detection performance.

"The detection threshold is defined as "the signal minus the noise level required" "there are any underwater noise sources in the environment,but nothing can replace the human operator." "A human interpretation is also required with minimum visible signal (MVS) and tangential sensitivity. Invariably, the received signal power is competing with some interfering signal in order to be detected or recognised."

Trained human ears are so smart. Be proud guys ! But performance also increases through effective training.

PS Your dog can detect your foot-steps in the dark.

Last edited by bordins; 22nd September 2009 at 05:19 AM.
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