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Old 10th May 2016, 07:32 AM   #881
Julf is offline Julf  Europe
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Originally Posted by rickmcinnis View Post
PM me a list of music you enjoy and your address and I will send
Will do, thanks! My music taste is pretty diverse, so I'll let you pick something, just make sure it is something where you know you hear a difference.

Wouldn't using something like dropbox be easier than sending a physical disk?
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Old 10th May 2016, 07:55 AM   #882
Julf is offline Julf  Europe
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Originally Posted by rickmcinnis View Post
We are obviously into a very different kind of sound.
Not sure - what kind of sound are you into?

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I know of the hypex products but have never heard any of them.
Worth checking out for anyone who still believes there is a "class D sound".

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Replicating that crossover actively was probably quite an experience!
"Not trivial" , and still an ongoing project of fine-tuning.

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With first order crossovers as I use I worry that an active could be worse.
Probably not. Crossover order is much less of an issue with DSP than with passive filters. DSP allows you to control both steepness and impulse response, so that you can use steep cut-offs (your drivers will thank you) without any of the traditional downsides.

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Never had the chance to hear, or see for that matter the ISOBARIKs though I know their bass is legendary. Four B139s - first good bass I ever heard was from a B139 as used in the IMF Reference something or other - I think they were labelled differently in the UK. Then I heard horn bass a few years later.
Ah yes, the IMF transmission line speakers - I still fondly remember helping a good friend build a TL speaker based on the Wireless World article from the 60's (that John Wright based the IMF design on).

The Linn isobaric design is of course a bit different, with two 139's working in tandem, giving a virtual mass of double that of a single speaker, with half the compliance (basically giving the response of an enclosure double the size of the real one),
but yes, both the transmission lines and the Isobariks were famous for their deep but neutral bass. I also love the treble of the Isobariks - they use a rather special tweeter from Hiquphon, a small danish company that still makes them (I had to replace two tweeters in my 'briks).
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Old 10th May 2016, 01:11 PM   #883
rickmcinnis is offline rickmcinnis  United States
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Of course, it would be easier to use something like DROPBOX but I would think you would realize that I would think that would spoil it.

My assumption is the use of minimal processing is what is making these sound good.

Yes, I know there is a vast difference in transmission line loading and the isobarik concept pioneered by LINN.

I like the sound of a loudspeaker that is capable of producing a large wavefront - before I went with horns I used electrostatics, first ACOUSTATS and then the original MARTIN LOGAN CLS1, using modified ACOUSTAT direct drive amplifiers, no transformers. I find my horns give me that same level of delicacy with little limitation of "dynamic expression" as Herb Reichert elegantly labelled the quality.

Never was quite sure what the relationship was with Mr. Fried and the company that made the loudspeakers. Was he just the importer of the speakers into the US or did he invest in the company?

Decades ago I carried on a correspondence with Mr. Fried who very kindly deigned to correspond with a youngster, I was in my twenties. Back when we had to send real pieces of paper through the mail. I was in awe of the transmission line idea since it was an unusual approach. The unusual has that effect on me. Then I got to hear a pair, someone in Atlanta had them, a friend of Bob Levi who is a legendary audio guy these days writing for POSITIVE FEEDBACK. Not to pretend that I am friends with Mr. Levi ...

Effortless bass, in comparison to anything I had ever heard until that time.

A few years later I got to hear the horns of John Fusilier. Probably the smartest audio guy I ever had the chance to know. He had been a pilot for decades and his upper frequency hearing was just about gone but with this deficiency he had the most acute hearing. He could listen to a speaker and tell you what was happening in the crossover, how the crossover was configured. I figure it is akin to color-blind people being able to see things the rest of us miss entirely.

Mr. Fusilier had designed his own version of the KLIPSCHORN (is that missing an "H" or more than that?) that was an incredible sounding thing. I heard actual KHorns a few years later and there was no comparison. I could not enjoy listening to those for very long at all.

I took a ROGERS LS3/5a to his house one evening and he was able to describe what was being done in the crossover and that was one complicated crossover. Needless to say he had built hundreds of loudspeakers over the years and had learned what does what.

After hearing what horns could really sound like I knew that is where I would end up. The way the things can load, and unload, the room with immediacy. Something I have never heard any direct radiator able to do. I think there is definitely a horn sound, but I do not mean the sound of cupping your hands in front of your mouth. The immediacy of the attack and the subsequent silence with ease, they never sound like they are working.

They do take up lots of room which for most would be, and is, the problem.

I love the idea of digital crossovers but I do listen to LPs so I am not very interested in the extra processing that would be needed. Plus, I figure they are easier to implement when using a computer for playback and I do not use a computer for playback; only to control the SOEKRIS DAC for polarity inversion and filter selection, which is a fine feature of the DAC.

I am getting a very flat response below 1000 hz as measured with REW. Above that there is a smooth slow decline which sounds best in the room. I think I have a decent room for music.
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Old 10th May 2016, 01:29 PM   #884
Julf is offline Julf  Europe
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Originally Posted by rickmcinnis View Post
Of course, it would be easier to use something like DROPBOX but I would think you would realize that I would think that would spoil it.

My assumption is the use of minimal processing is what is making these sound good.
So you think copying the file to dropbox would change the sound? In that case we are officially deep in the SandyK Twilight Zone territory.

Can you please explain what possible mechanism for degradation there could be in that scenario? And why doesn't that mechanism affect any other data (such as programs, spreadsheets, emails and web pages)?

Quote:
I love the idea of digital crossovers but I do listen to LPs so I am not very interested in the extra processing that would be needed.
Then I assume you mostly listen to recordings made more than 20 years ago - anything newer probably started out as a digital recording.

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I am getting a very flat response below 1000 hz as measured with REW. Above that there is a smooth slow decline which sounds best in the room. I think I have a decent room for music.
Yes, that does indeed sound like a pretty good match of room and speaker.
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Old 10th May 2016, 01:53 PM   #885
rickmcinnis is offline rickmcinnis  United States
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I do not know who sandyk is but I would have to assume I am there. I know you mentioned he heard a difference ripping with linear supplies. I would tend to think linear supplies, alone, would not make a huge difference. We found with the cMP minimized OS project that the goodness of linear supplies was more evident with the OS getting smaller and out of the way, so to speak.

Not sure I would call it Twilight Zone but I am certainly not offended by such a reference. Never watched the show ...

All I can say is the diode at one time seemed like something out of the "Twilight Zone".

Most of my LPs are old. I have purchased some new ones and have not been all that happy with them.

But as far as LPs from digital masters: not that I am one to spend big money on power cords (I do not use exotic power cords) but I could see a correlation
with those who posit that, in the case of the power cord, even though miles of cable comes before the power cord there is something about the last few feet could be analogous to the possibility that the LP version of a digital recording could sound better than the CD or download. I am of no opinion on this.

Since I am finding myself as pleased with what I am hearing digitally as analogically that is not the case for me. I think the CD from the digital master will be as good as the LP.

On the other hand: I had never bought a LED ZEPPELIN CD since I am not much of a fan but I do love HOUSES OF THE HOLY. So with my new found digital happiness I thought I would hear what it sounds like. Well, in this case, my old original LP sounds much better. I think they say Page assisted in the mix and one has to assume he decided to compensate for missing upper midrange and above since this thing sounds anemic in the low end and almost glassy in the upper frequencies. Quite a disappointment

I try not to have too much duplication of formats so direct comparisons are not often possible.
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Old 10th May 2016, 02:09 PM   #886
Julf is offline Julf  Europe
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Originally Posted by rickmcinnis View Post
I do not know who sandyk is but I would have to assume I am there.
So, one more time, just for clarification - do you think copying the file to dropbox would change the sound?

Can you please explain what possible mechanism for degradation there could be in that scenario? And why doesn't that mechanism affect any other data (such as programs, spreadsheets, emails and web pages)?

Quote:
All I can say is the diode at one time seemed like something out of the "Twilight Zone".
But unlike stuff from The Twilight Zone, the diode effect was first detected by measurements, conformed to the theories about electricity at the time, and was verified and replicated by several researchers in a repeatable, controlled way.

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But as far as LPs from digital masters: not that I am one to spend big money on power cords (I do not use exotic power cords) but I could see a correlation
with those who posit that, in the case of the power cord, even though miles of cable comes before the power cord there is something about the last few feet could be analogous to the possibility that the LP version of a digital recording could sound better than the CD or download.
The LP version definitely sounds different (and that is easy to verify, unlike the power cable situation) due to the shortcomings of vinyl as a medium and the studio processing required to account for those shortcomings (limited SNR and limited low frequency amplitude capability).

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I think the CD from the digital master will be as good as the LP.
Yes, and that has been proven multiple times by the simple test of adding an analog-digital-analog step into an analog vinyl chain. Adding the digital step was undetectable in double-blind listening tests. Thus you wouldn't need to worry about adding a digital step to accommodate active crossovers.

Quote:
On the other hand: I had never bought a LED ZEPPELIN CD since I am not much of a fan but I do love HOUSES OF THE HOLY. So with my new found digital happiness I thought I would hear what it sounds like. Well, in this case, my old original LP sounds much better. I think they say Page assisted in the mix and one has to assume he decided to compensate for missing upper midrange and above since this thing sounds anemic in the low end and almost glassy in the upper frequencies. Quite a disappointment
Indeed. Different mixes/masterings, so not comparable.
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Old 10th May 2016, 02:29 PM   #887
rickmcinnis is offline rickmcinnis  United States
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I have no idea what the mechanism is. Have never made any claims as to know what mechanism it could be!

Only thing I can conceptualize is that something happens between the ones and zero's which we do not yet understand. Could they become "blurry", not as well defined because of "noise" interwoven in with the numbers? That is what I would think.

All I know is what I have heard and, subsequently, reported. I am hoping one of you engineers would find the mechanism since you have the tools and the training. This should be a collaboration.

I have not uploaded a file to DROPBOX and then reloaded it so I have no idea if it would affect the file. It is my instinct that it would.

The measurements made on the first diode would have been very crude and could be seen as an attempt to document what was observed. The observation was far more important than the measurement, I would think.
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Old 10th May 2016, 03:12 PM   #888
Julf is offline Julf  Europe
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Originally Posted by rickmcinnis View Post
Only thing I can conceptualize is that something happens between the ones and zero's which we do not yet understand. Could they become "blurry", not as well defined because of "noise" interwoven in with the numbers? That is what I would think.
No, they can't. That is exactly the difference between analog and digital. Analog uses a quantity such as voltage as a direct representation ("analogy") of the signal, so any distortion or noise affecting the analog quantity affects the sound signal directly. Digital encodes the signal using symbols representing the values. It doesn't matter if the symbols are sharp or fuzzy, pink or blue, as long as they don't turn into a completely different symbol.

A voltage of 100 V can easily be 100.01 or 99.99 V. The symbol string "1100100" is exactly that, unless you actually change a "1" into a "0" or a "0" into a "1".

Of course the symbols are represented by voltages, charges, currents, magnetic fields or laser light inside computers, cables and networks. But the way the bits are encoded make them error-resistant - a typical circuit would use something like 0-0.7 V to signify "0", and 3.5-5 V for "1", so you would have to introduce a lot of noise to swap a "0" to a "1" - and there is nothing in between. The circuit receiving the signal makes a binary decision - the outcome is either "0" or "1", based on the voltage being above or below a set limit, such as 1.5 V. Not "just a bit more than 0" or "almost, but not quite 1".

Again, how come spreadsheets, web pages, programs and emails don't get corrupted?

Quote:
All I know is what I have heard and, subsequently, reported. I am hoping one of you engineers would find the mechanism since you have the tools and the training. This should be a collaboration.
Yes. The first step would be to rule out the obvious explanation, confirmation bias. Easy to do with a double-blind listening test, like I have suggested a number of times.

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I have not uploaded a file to DROPBOX and then reloaded it so I have no idea if it would affect the file.
But you have no curiosity to try? As I have stated before, if it actually does affect the file, it is a discovery worth the Nobel Price in physics (and the patent would be worth billions of dollars).

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It is my instinct that it would.
Human instincts are great for a lot of things, but not that great for understanding information theory, or even logic.

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The measurements made on the first diode would have been very crude and could be seen as an attempt to document what was observed. The observation was far more important than the measurement, I would think.
The measurement *was* the observation. It wasn't "this looks a bit funny" or "that sounded strange", but "if I have a glowing filament and a metal plate in a vacuum, we can measure a current flow only in one direction".
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Old 10th May 2016, 05:14 PM   #889
rickmcinnis is offline rickmcinnis  United States
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I doubt that that would qualify for any kind of prize much less the dynamite prize!

I agree it makes no sense. I agree even more that I wish it made no difference.

I realize that my measurement comment made no sense - what I was trying to say and obviously still cannot quite express it is that the tool with which whomever saw that the current only flowed in one direction was only good for that one thing. There was no quantification, I figure this crude ammeter was the tool of observation but ...

from WIKIPEDIA

In 1880, William J. Hammer, assistant to Thomas Edison at his Menlo Park, New Jersey laboratory, reported a blue glow around the positive pole and a blackening of the wire at the negative pole of an early electric light bulb. Originally called “Hammer’s Phantom Shadow,” his employer renamed the phenomenon the “Edison Effect,” when he patented the incandescent light bulb in 1883.

So it did begin with an observation.
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Old 11th May 2016, 06:37 AM   #890
Julf is offline Julf  Europe
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I doubt that that would qualify for any kind of prize much less the dynamite prize!
It would. It would revolutionize information theory, computer science, digital electronics and much more. Imagine the ways of stealth communication it would enable?

Unfortunately I suspect there is a much more mundane explanation.
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