Hi Pete, where are you going to fit the clock? I'd really recommend clocking the decoder,filter and dac directly from the new clock. You'd need to create a /2 of the 16.xxMhz for the dac but its well worth it. I think Brent is selling D1's for about £15. that would do it and also provide the output for a DEM clock if you wanted!?!?
Hmm, not sure.
In the 160 I removed the 7220 completely and fed the clock directly to the 7210. Not sure if I'll keep the OS on the mission or not, might do to start. The flea has 2 outputs so I could split the signal to the 7210 and 7220 ok. The dacs a non-a version in the mission (for the moment at least) so I don't think it's possible to feed it a direct clock signal.
Pete
In the 160 I removed the 7220 completely and fed the clock directly to the 7210. Not sure if I'll keep the OS on the mission or not, might do to start. The flea has 2 outputs so I could split the signal to the 7210 and 7220 ok. The dacs a non-a version in the mission (for the moment at least) so I don't think it's possible to feed it a direct clock signal.
Pete
Hi Ian,
a link to Brent's D1? I've collected infos and part list but it's a bit too expensive right now to have the PCB made just for me. And maybe it's time to remove the tiny "Fetishizator"!
About the TDA reclocking, as seen on the huge threads about that DAC, it's often seen with RC prior to data lines,
do you advise to feed the TDA still through these RC or remove (but the say 33 or 100R) it to feed it with the Clock 5V? Arcam does have such R, many link the SAA7220 to the TDA via 1K/10pF... no more use in that case?
As for your question Pete, I've fitted super regs at the DAC, +5/-5/-15, LM317 in state of the art at the SAA7220 and SAA7310.
Last one extended the bandwith, -5/-15 gave the best improvement in tonal balance (corrected the SAA7310 thing) and all other where nice. Know that it's a bit overkill in a CD40, anyway the cdp was free, I had many LM317 and LT1028 as sample... If I had to buy all parts "shop price" (a LT1028 is a costy IC!), I think I wouldn't have gone that far...
I'm at the point I can't decide wich player I may keep, a CD43 with the Space-O-Scope, a CD40 with the Natural-O-Scope...
Picture with the first super-reg (+5V)
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7006/cd40sr5v.jpg
So IMHO that's worth it if you have the matching system!
Matthieu
a link to Brent's D1? I've collected infos and part list but it's a bit too expensive right now to have the PCB made just for me. And maybe it's time to remove the tiny "Fetishizator"!
About the TDA reclocking, as seen on the huge threads about that DAC, it's often seen with RC prior to data lines,
do you advise to feed the TDA still through these RC or remove (but the say 33 or 100R) it to feed it with the Clock 5V? Arcam does have such R, many link the SAA7220 to the TDA via 1K/10pF... no more use in that case?
As for your question Pete, I've fitted super regs at the DAC, +5/-5/-15, LM317 in state of the art at the SAA7220 and SAA7310.
Last one extended the bandwith, -5/-15 gave the best improvement in tonal balance (corrected the SAA7310 thing) and all other where nice. Know that it's a bit overkill in a CD40, anyway the cdp was free, I had many LM317 and LT1028 as sample... If I had to buy all parts "shop price" (a LT1028 is a costy IC!), I think I wouldn't have gone that far...
I'm at the point I can't decide wich player I may keep, a CD43 with the Space-O-Scope, a CD40 with the Natural-O-Scope...
Picture with the first super-reg (+5V)
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7006/cd40sr5v.jpg
So IMHO that's worth it if you have the matching system!
Matthieu
Hi Pete, its my preference to keep the 7220 and supply it with a very good reg along with direct clocking to all 3 chips. either build something based on a Jung feedback type or use an SPower. Its miles and miles better than removing the filter. Because the B chip is so noisy, if you don't treat it to a really good supply its never going to be better than removing it and going NOS. Also, if you let it do the clock distribution, you'll polute the clock signal as it feeds everything else! It depends where you want to end up. Best sound for littel outlay is NOS and best sound but spending a bit on a decent reg leave the B chip in!
From memory, on the non a chip, you'd want /2 clock to pin 2 and sysclock to pin 4! This is what I also do on mine. You may find that 2&4 are linked in which case you can go for /2 to both. There's a link to my clocking doc a few posts back, take a look.
Low jitter clocks for dac and servos
Nice neat work there Matthieu. Whats the reg based on? Does it use feedback?
Mea culpa, for me D1 was Pass' output stage... still have to make mine then!
As for the Jung/Didden/Sjöström: sjostromaudio.com - SSR01 Sjöström Super Regulator
I can't explain anything about it, beside that it works fine with as low as +/-5V and the so-called ultra-low-noise LT1028ANC8. I've tuned the -5 & -15 to a nice.. -10.00V between
No more digital camera but now it's full like an egg :'( and I agree with Simon, these Philips cases are nice : no need to remove the pcb, nice as it's now impossible!
As for the Jung/Didden/Sjöström: sjostromaudio.com - SSR01 Sjöström Super Regulator
I can't explain anything about it, beside that it works fine with as low as +/-5V and the so-called ultra-low-noise LT1028ANC8. I've tuned the -5 & -15 to a nice.. -10.00V between
No more digital camera but now it's full like an egg :'( and I agree with Simon, these Philips cases are nice : no need to remove the pcb, nice as it's now impossible!
Thanks all, plenty to think about.
I can do lots with seperate little regs and NOS for next to nothing. With keeping the 7220 and multiple clock feeds and multiple S-powers I'm probably looking at an additional £250 > 300. All this in a player with a 25 year old laser that you can't replace anymore and 55 year old ears that have seen (heard) better days.
I know that most of these extra bits will be re-useable in other machines but I'm not convinced that the step improvement is going to be that great for the cost.
I'll let you know how I get on with whatever I decide to do.
Pete
I can do lots with seperate little regs and NOS for next to nothing. With keeping the 7220 and multiple clock feeds and multiple S-powers I'm probably looking at an additional £250 > 300. All this in a player with a 25 year old laser that you can't replace anymore and 55 year old ears that have seen (heard) better days.
I know that most of these extra bits will be re-useable in other machines but I'm not convinced that the step improvement is going to be that great for the cost.
I'll let you know how I get on with whatever I decide to do.
Pete
What is it, £35 for an S Power to deal with the SAA7220? Another for the SAA7210 and you're done. The divided clock feeds aren't needed for wonderful sound, though I'm sure they add even more amazingness!! It will cost £70-80 to thrash the NOS sound in my estimation. It's your call, just my 2p's worth.
So you wouldn't bother with spowers (they seem to be £40) for the dac / opamps?
Definately the biggest upgrade on this type of player is to add an SPower to the SAA7220! You can distributed a clean clock to the SAA7210 for free (if you are upgrading the clock) so its a no brainer.
Go on Pete, try an SPower, if you don't like it, i'll but it off you for the price Brent charges you!!! lol
I got em everywhere Pete! 2 on the Burson output stage, 3 on the DAC, 1 on the Decoder, 1 on the filter, a couple on the filter + 3 or 4 audiocom ones scattered about too! The biggest single gain will be on the 7220 by far. The Spower can deliver the current where the others can't too!
PM Brent AKA Rowemeister (i'm sure you know that already) he may be able to offer you a bit on incentive?!?!?!
'Thrashing NOS' can be done for utter bobbins, never mind £200+
Start with simple stuff, done well. Lots of shared knowledge in this thread already - re-read it. For the '7220 a pair of LM317s carefully set-up as a tracking pre-reg can offer 90+% of a commercial (or other) superreg, for pennies - I've played with this rather a *lot*...
Apply the same priorities to the other supplies and you'll find there's no magic to it, just appropriate engineering. Often what you are after is even-handed (linear) dynamic performance - absolute 'low noise' really doesn't matter so much; neither do ultra-low ESR caps.
Yes, custom regs will be better ultimately if you have teh patience and guidance to use well; but by doing what you can with jellybean parts, that difference is surprisingly small. It's about knowing what you need, rather than what people want to sell you.*
Starter for ten, by no means original:
Using 3-pin regulators off-piste: part 1
Using 3-pin regulators off-piste: part 2
Using 3-pin regulators off-piste: part 3
*which is, frankly, why i don't post here much. Adios.
Start with simple stuff, done well. Lots of shared knowledge in this thread already - re-read it. For the '7220 a pair of LM317s carefully set-up as a tracking pre-reg can offer 90+% of a commercial (or other) superreg, for pennies - I've played with this rather a *lot*...
Apply the same priorities to the other supplies and you'll find there's no magic to it, just appropriate engineering. Often what you are after is even-handed (linear) dynamic performance - absolute 'low noise' really doesn't matter so much; neither do ultra-low ESR caps.
Yes, custom regs will be better ultimately if you have teh patience and guidance to use well; but by doing what you can with jellybean parts, that difference is surprisingly small. It's about knowing what you need, rather than what people want to sell you.*
Starter for ten, by no means original:
Using 3-pin regulators off-piste: part 1
Using 3-pin regulators off-piste: part 2
Using 3-pin regulators off-piste: part 3
*which is, frankly, why i don't post here much. Adios.
Last edited:
It's also about what's practical, Martin. Slapping a bought super-reg in place of a 7805 is easy to do. Making a double tracking pre-regulator is a bit of a bind, and fitting 10 of them in a player is something that rarely gets done for that very reason. It's news to me that these regs can be 90% as good as super types, I really didn't know that. The difference between a stock Arcam Alpha and Philips CD650 is sonically large and inside the biggest obvious change is the use of LM317/337 over fixed types - I guess they're not so bad. But then the Arcam also has two power transformers, a more complex output stage, later variants of the chipset and a slightly different mech.
I'm itching to try this tracking pre-regulator now, I saw it staring at me in some datasheet the other day....!
I'm itching to try this tracking pre-regulator now, I saw it staring at me in some datasheet the other day....!
Kinda brings me back to where I started from.
Whether I go down the NOS or OS route (maybe keep my Arcam as OS to compare) I've made all the changes to date with adding individual regs (I guess stage 0.8 or 1 from Martins list) and I'm very happy with the sound.
Is the step improvement from replacing them all with Spowers (or equivalent) worth the cost outlay?
Or are there some specific places where the improvement with an Spower over an individual isolated reg is a bigger step than others?
Pete
PS I've considered trying to build more complicated regs but honestly my simple versions are a bit messy and about 15% of the ones that I've made in the past tend to produce smoke when I connect them so I'm not confident of building the more complicated ones myself without a PCB (and then it starts getting expensive again).
Whether I go down the NOS or OS route (maybe keep my Arcam as OS to compare) I've made all the changes to date with adding individual regs (I guess stage 0.8 or 1 from Martins list) and I'm very happy with the sound.
Is the step improvement from replacing them all with Spowers (or equivalent) worth the cost outlay?
Or are there some specific places where the improvement with an Spower over an individual isolated reg is a bigger step than others?
Pete
PS I've considered trying to build more complicated regs but honestly my simple versions are a bit messy and about 15% of the ones that I've made in the past tend to produce smoke when I connect them
so I'm not confident of building the more complicated ones myself without a PCB (and then it starts getting expensive again).
Hi Martin, Your input here and on some of the other threads I follow is more than usefull.
I appreciate that both myself and Simon have used Brents products rather a lot in out players. My reason for being here is to squeeze the most I can out of my player and as such, I wish to use the best parts I can. I can build (and have several of) my own very good regulators, but to be honest, in my main player, space is an issue so I choose to use the SPower. As mentioned by Simon, its far easier to drop in a std type/size reg than build a much larger one even if the cost is 1/4. By the time you have assembled and got the reg working, it makes the neatness and size of some of the better commercial regs very good VFM.
Nobody is saying that a home made reg like one with a traking pre reg or feedback etc is no good. I myself have studied papers published by Walt Jung and Andrew Weekes in order to try to undestand what makes a regulator "good" and used the output to build my own regs.
With respect to this player, I still stand by my statement that the reg on the filter chip is the biggest single upgrade. Also, based on my own experience, if you are going to buy a commercial reg, the SPower is reasonable priced and better than some that cost significantly more. All imho of course.
Ian
Last edited:
I don't think you need to apologise for liking a particular brand of regulator Ian
Whilst we're on this subject, have you tried Tent Labs' shunt regs? They're actually a bit cheaper.
Simon
ps - do you think I should start a new thread about Arcam Alpha mods? (I searched but not much came up and what did was all old) I could just post my mods here, after all it's the same family of chipset, albeit a more refined implementation.
I don't think you need to apologise for liking a particular brand of regulator Ian
Whilst we're on this subject, have you tried Tent Labs' shunt regs? They're actually a bit cheaper.
Simon
ps - do you think I should start a new thread about Arcam Alpha mods? (I searched but not much came up and what did was all old) I could just post my mods here, after all it's the same family of chipset, albeit a more refined implementation.
Not tried the tent labs shunt regs although I have looked several times. CD63 Ray uses them all the time, but I don't think that they can do the current for the 7220 tho? I've also studied Teddy Regs but never tried one! My experience is only of Audiocom super regs, Q-Powers and Invisius, Brents SPowers, Lee's reg and my own along with LM317/337's and std 78/79xx.
Funny enough, I was just talking to Lee about shunt regs!!!
So far as a new thread goes, I'd post your work here, its going to be mainly non player specific in any case!