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Old 27th August 2008, 06:22 AM   #1
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Default SACD DVD-A Player overloading Reciever Front End?

I think I've discovered the source of my Woahs, and would like some suggestions.

I bought a Refurbished Denon DVD-1930CI, so I could enjoy me some SACD and DVD-A recordings. My Tuner is a Yamaha RX-V2500.

For the Most part everything sounds great, but I noticed that on some of my Elton John SACD's there would be a little Crackling from some of the mid heavy parts or happening during his heavy vocals. I thought I noticed it on some other recordings.

And I just noticed it on the Dialog on my Firefly DVD.

I've ruled out my speaker amplifier/DSP Frontend (Using Ice amps converting RCA to XLR), they have way more head room than the Yamaha Has available, and the tweeter amp is attenuated almost 10dB respective to the mid and woof, so its not the amps clipping.

Anyhow I read the manual for the Dennon it says its audio outputs operate at 2VRMS!!!!

The input sensitivity for the Yamaha is 200mV @ 47kOhm. So voltage wise the Dennon can deliver 10 X the volatge the Yamaha needs.

I suppose Dennon does this for extended headroom?

Doesn't sound like a match made in heaven.

It seems like I may need to make a passive Pad.

I was wondering if anyone here has any recomendations on how to proceed it all sounds great until I get those uncontrolable HF Crackles.

Thanks-

Antone-
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Old 27th August 2008, 03:21 PM   #2
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hi sumsound,

does the denon have its own volume control?
if so, try reducing the volume on the player, it wont reduce the output voltage but may help, i have had a similar problem-my cdp puts out 3v instead of the standard 2!

or you could try adjusting the amps speaker levels

failing that i'd say check and then re-check all connections

im not familiar with this player, but hope it helps

regards
jimmy
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Old 27th August 2008, 07:07 PM   #3
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I'm pretty sure that 1VRMS is the standard.

No Volume Control on the Denon as far as I can tell. I'll search the soft menus.

My Yamaha output is rated at 1V out (I see more on the scope)

Another thing I noticed is that My Volume Knob @ "0dB" is -3dB from the input signal from the DVD player even with "Pure Direct activated"

This means the Yamaha Pre Amp operates at Less than unity.

Your CD player putting out 3V How did you discover this.

2VRMS is 2.828 V-peak.

I'm only Noticing the distortion on my Elton John SACD's, My Flaming Lips the Soft Report DVD-A (2 Channel), and my Firefly DVD Dialog when voices get loud. (Even running at -20dB).

I haven't noticed this with Standard CD's

Either there are mastering problems on all of these (I don't think I noticed Crackle on the Elton John CD layer I'll have to check).

I hope there is an easy solution. I hope its not a problem in the DACS for the Denon.

I'm still doubtful any of the problems are coming from the ICE AMPS or DSP in front of them.

The crackle originates in the tweeter, but I'm no where close to driving them as far as the amps can go, it doesn't sound like I'm stressing the tweeter. And again happens at low levels.

My Theory is that the DVD-A and the SACD use more Voltage for the Greater Dynamic Swing Capability??? I could be wrong.

Antone-
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Old 28th August 2008, 12:15 AM   #4
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im pretty sure 2v is industry standard, not sure who's standard though could try google

i doubt there are any problems in the denon's dacs , most modern chips and ic's go through stringent tests and are produced in sealed atmospheres, altough if problems were to occour , its likely that the culprit is not the dac itself but some other part of the circuit.

the problem could be caused by some cds, i have heard odd things and some of my cds sound louder on certain songs than others, i think that some tracks are over-eq'd to make them sound better?

also you say it only happens on sacd and dvd-a, has this always been the case or has it just started to show up recently, does it happen at low levels or is it only when going a bit loud? have you tried using dfferent cables or do you have another amp or speakers you can try on, just to eliminate

if it persists, it could just be the way some cds are mastered, you can buy some plug-in attenuators which are designed for this kind of thing-do agoogle or ebay search for rothwell attenuators.

my cdp is a bit of an oddball, i puts our 3.56v peak!!!(checked with meter) i found little info on the web but i did find some info saying it put out 3v
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Old 28th August 2008, 02:10 AM   #5
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Yah only SACD, DVD-A and, Some DVD Dialog.

I think the other thing I'll try is driving my Class A direct coupled Headphone amp with the DVD player see if the crackle is still there.

Its easy enough to build a Voltage Divider with some nice metal film resistors, though I don't know what the Output Z of the Denon is.

I guess I could make some sort of switching circuit. Since Standard CD's don't seem to cause any Crackle. I do think I noticed the SACD has a higher Voltage Swing than the Standard CD. I didn't check the DVD-A voltage. Maybe I should play with some DVD authoring tools and make some test tones.

The Player is a refurbished B-Stock from Denon so maybe thats the problem. I still have the paper work. from the box.

Thanks.

Antone-
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Old 28th August 2008, 06:13 PM   #6
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Haven't had a chance to investigate further.

Anyone else have any Helpful suggestions????
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Old 28th August 2008, 08:06 PM   #7
rossl is offline rossl  United States
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I'm pretty sure there is no standard.



Stereophile mag seems to consider 1.22VRMS as the standard in their equipment reviews.

I think it would be amazing that a Yamaha would clip the input of 1.22 or 2V rms.

In my opinion, It's much more likely that something is wrong with the Denon. Try to check the supply voltages on the output op amps.
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Old 28th August 2008, 10:04 PM   #8
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by rossl
I'm pretty sure there is no standard.



Stereophile mag seems to consider 1.22VRMS as the standard in their equipment reviews.

I think it would be amazing that a Yamaha would clip the input of 1.22 or 2V rms.

In my opinion, It's much more likely that something is wrong with the Denon. Try to check the supply voltages on the output op amps.

Actually there is a standard, it comes from the old Philips/Sony Red book and it is 2.0Vrms for 0dBFS.. This has been propagated to DVD/SACD and other formats particularly in multi-format machines.

This level can be enough to cause an issue with older products designed when line level was standardized at 707mVrms.. (0dBu) Some gear meeting din specifications has even higher sensitivity which can be an issue if there is gain ahead of the volume control.

FWIW There are standards for just about everything, and most manufacturers comply or indicate that they are not complying in the product spec.. Sometimes it can be hard to locate the relevant standard..
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Old 29th August 2008, 08:40 AM   #9
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Unfortunately the distortion appears to be comming from the Denon.

I hooked it up to my headphone amp and the distortion is still there.

The voltages on the JRC 4580 op amps on the output is ~10V measured across Possitive and Negative (pin 4 and 8) Pin 4 is ground so its a voltage divider power supply instead of a dual rail.

Antone-
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Old 29th August 2008, 04:01 PM   #10
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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I was hoping that there was not a problem with the Denon. Can you return it or is it too late? Do you have an oscilloscope? Using a scope it should be possible to identify the bad stage. Not having a bipolar supply in and of itself is not a disaster - this unit would still respond to all of the standard mods, and it would allow you to choose from a wide range of devices that do not operate on higher supply rails.

One other thing to consider is the possibility that you are hearing the injudicious use of compression on your source disks, and I have encountered cds in the past that actually reached 0dBFS and clipped on machines known to be perfectly fine.

Tuck1 mentions making a test cd on his cyrus thread that you might want to download to use as a test disk. It's apparently recorded at -6dBFS so it might cause the issue you are hearing, or it might not, them again you never know.. It's free and worth a shot:

http://www.thetucks.com/Audio_Test_CD.php
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