There might be a better way to implement Citizen crystal
While checking some of the Lampizator ideas: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...-improving-motor-cec-mabuchi.html#post1926921 I had a chance to compare the clocked output of CEC TL0 vs a simple resistive divider output. In the end the clocked output appeared to be better and for some time I was thinking on trying it with Shigaclone. The guys on Audiostereo Forum made more experiments already, but nothing so far has been documented well: Robimy shigaraki transport / CD Flatfish - Do It Yourself - Forum Audio - Audiostereo.pl
So let's start from the beginning.
Attached is original CEC TL0 clocked output schematic and pics of the boards. "The master oscillator (a crystal which looks like Citizen) controls not the transport mechanism but the output stage, a flip-flop chip that could be considered a 1-bit FIFO. The output data thus have the maximum timing precision, which is where it is needed. The mechanical drive is slaved to the output stage".
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This is how it's being done in ML31.5: Stereophile: Mark Levinson No.31.5 Reference CD transport
"More important from a sound-quality point of view, they remove the Philips-supplied 1000ppm-accuracy oscillator from the servo board and replace it with a TCXO (Temperature-Controlled Crystal Oscillator). Spec'd at 5ppm and run at a 256fs rate, this is mounted on its own sprung printed circuit board next to the output. And even more important with respect to sound quality, the transport has changed conceptually. That master oscillator controls not the transport mechanism but the output stage, a flip-flop chip that could be considered a 1-bit FIFO. The output data thus have the maximum timing precision, which is where it is needed. The mechanical drive is slaved to the output stage and therefore needs to be able to respond to its demands, which is why a 2x drive mechanism, with its inherently fast response, comes in useful. (This topology, referred to by Madrigal as Closed-Loop Jitter Reduction, or CLJR, was developed for the less expensive No.37 and Proceed CDD transports.)"
"More important from a sound-quality point of view, they remove the Philips-supplied 1000ppm-accuracy oscillator from the servo board and replace it with a TCXO (Temperature-Controlled Crystal Oscillator). Spec'd at 5ppm and run at a 256fs rate, this is mounted on its own sprung printed circuit board next to the output. And even more important with respect to sound quality, the transport has changed conceptually. That master oscillator controls not the transport mechanism but the output stage, a flip-flop chip that could be considered a 1-bit FIFO. The output data thus have the maximum timing precision, which is where it is needed. The mechanical drive is slaved to the output stage and therefore needs to be able to respond to its demands, which is why a 2x drive mechanism, with its inherently fast response, comes in useful. (This topology, referred to by Madrigal as Closed-Loop Jitter Reduction, or CLJR, was developed for the less expensive No.37 and Proceed CDD transports.)"
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And this how I did it in my transport. Please see attached edited CEC schematic (according to board layout the RCA output is actually taken from pin 9 of the flip-flop)
I added a small board with two chips and few additional parts (used exactly same chips as CEC, some experimenting here with different types maybe worthwhile and will follow), crystal is Citizen and output transformer Scientific Conversion. I didn't use output coupling cap, it's not really needed here as long the DAC does not show any input DC offset.
I didn't use any additional regulator (TL0 does not use one either) the power, data and ground are simply taken from main board, another wire connects clock signal from output board to main board (use resonator pad which is further away from LC78601 chip)
How does it sound? Well, I didn't find anything wrong with the transport in a first place, with a mod though, it has a bit less of edginess and thin sounding, which some people may find sort of annoying. It produces sounds that are better defined in space and possibly more refined. It's certainly worth trying and I would be interested how others find it.
I added a small board with two chips and few additional parts (used exactly same chips as CEC, some experimenting here with different types maybe worthwhile and will follow), crystal is Citizen and output transformer Scientific Conversion. I didn't use output coupling cap, it's not really needed here as long the DAC does not show any input DC offset.
I didn't use any additional regulator (TL0 does not use one either) the power, data and ground are simply taken from main board, another wire connects clock signal from output board to main board (use resonator pad which is further away from LC78601 chip)
How does it sound? Well, I didn't find anything wrong with the transport in a first place, with a mod though, it has a bit less of edginess and thin sounding, which some people may find sort of annoying. It produces sounds that are better defined in space and possibly more refined. It's certainly worth trying and I would be interested how others find it.
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Interesting mod Peter. Are all the parts available from the major suppliers?
I often thought about going for one of those chinese clocks from ebay, with the separate power supply etc, but never felt I was missing enough to make me go for it....
BTW, a friend of mine has found a pretty cheap Phillips DVD player (60-70€) and he says it sounds very close to the shiga.... I'll check for a model number with him.
Fran
Fran
I often thought about going for one of those chinese clocks from ebay, with the separate power supply etc, but never felt I was missing enough to make me go for it....
BTW, a friend of mine has found a pretty cheap Phillips DVD player (60-70€) and he says it sounds very close to the shiga.... I'll check for a model number with him.
Fran
Fran
Does anyone have an extra clamp?
Does anyone have an extra clamp?
My player didn't come with a magnetic clamp. The plastic clamp itself doesn't work too well. I would be happy to buy an original clamp with magnet in case someone has one to spare.
Please, send me a private message if you would like to help me out.
Does anyone have an extra clamp?
My player didn't come with a magnetic clamp. The plastic clamp itself doesn't work too well. I would be happy to buy an original clamp with magnet in case someone has one to spare.
Please, send me a private message if you would like to help me out.
All the parts are easily available from DK, except for Scientific Conversion transformer, but a different transformer can be used as well.
I wouldn't bother with Chinese clock kit, the main selling point for those units is visual similarity to Levinson board, but the circuit would need to be further modified to fit in this specific application here, besides, I have doubts as to PS implementation: http://en.hifidiy.net/Speakers_DIY/200910/W020091012532157184593.gif I got one of those but never really bothered to put it together, maybe because half of the traces were missing on a clock board
As to Philips player, I noticed someone mentioned AZ1022 on the other forum.
I'll give your scheme a try. I've an open order at DK and I've already added the necessary parts. As you said they don't stock SC transformers, but they have a large choice of pulse transformers. I've just read some threads on this forum and many talk about SC944-05 (not available at DK), Pulse 65612 (available at DK but 600pcs minimum), Newava 22083 (available at 6.88€ each)
What do you think of this Murata (available at DK at 1.53€)? It seems to have the same characteristics of 22083 at a reduced cost.
Digi-Key - 811-1280-5-ND (Fabbricante - 76601/3C)
What do you think of this Murata (available at DK at 1.53€)? It seems to have the same characteristics of 22083 at a reduced cost.
Digi-Key - 811-1280-5-ND (Fabbricante - 76601/3C)
I don't have any experience with transformers, although Pulse Engineering seem to be quite popular and available from https://www1.elfa.se/elfa~eu_en/b2b/catalogstart.do?tab=catalog
popping noise!!!! need help
hi guys!!!
ive completed my build yesterday and really it sounds great!!! thanks for all your help!!!
the problem is im hearing occasional popping noises. theres a popping noise every time i press play and occasionally during heavy music transients/passages.
im using panasonic tsha caps in PS. and instead of Peter's recommendation on C916 of 47uf or 33uf, im using 30uf motor run as this is my only available cap for the moment.
is this 30uf cap insufficient?
anybody else has had the same problem?
my setup is: shigaclone connected to behringer upsampler then to cs4397 dac.
i have no problem when i use different transport.
thanks guys
hi guys!!!
ive completed my build yesterday and really it sounds great!!! thanks for all your help!!!
the problem is im hearing occasional popping noises. theres a popping noise every time i press play and occasionally during heavy music transients/passages.
im using panasonic tsha caps in PS. and instead of Peter's recommendation on C916 of 47uf or 33uf, im using 30uf motor run as this is my only available cap for the moment.
is this 30uf cap insufficient?
anybody else has had the same problem?
my setup is: shigaclone connected to behringer upsampler then to cs4397 dac.
i have no problem when i use different transport.
thanks guys
Hi tubo -
Have you tried going direct into the DAC without the Behringer?
I used to have the same setup and I seem to recall having a similar problem at one stage, but I can't remember at the moment exactly what I did to solve it! I think it's to do with the interface between the shigaclone and the Behringer. Are you using the recommended resistor values on the digital out? If you are, then try adding a coupling cap as suggested by Peter in post 3780.
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hi Jonners,
thanks for the input..
problem solved!!!! i just replaced the motor run cap in C916 with 47uf.
no more popping noise!!!!
good thing parts ordered arrived today!!!! im so satisfied with the sound quality.
thanks guys
