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Old 23rd November 2011, 01:19 PM   #5141
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In my opinion, both type and value is very important in C906. That the type matters, you have discovered for yourself already; I commented regarding values a few posts above.

Of all the caps I tested in C906, the best by far was the hand-made VNM Cap. I am eagerly awaiting Peter's comments on it - I sent him a sample and he was going to compare it with the V-Cap.

Quote:
This value WAS chosen for a reason by the bods at Sanyo (as they could easily have fitted a 0.01uF or 0.2uF etc etc).
I hate do disagree, but I highly doubt Sanyo would have gone to any lengths optimising a circuit intended for cheap portable players. They likely picked something that was guaranteed to work and left it at that. I mean, most electronics engineers ridicule the very notion that diferent cap types etc. can affect the sound - I somehow don't see them spending a lot of time researching optimal-sounding servo capacitors, if you see what I mean...

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I'm all for modding (honest - not posting this to ruffle any feathers) but perhaps it's best to find out sometimes what a part does/it's importance before just 'shooting in the dark' as it were?
According to the boombox schematic (page 22), C906 is connected to pin 10 of LA9242M. The latter's datasheet reveals that pin 10 (TH) is responsible for "Tracking gain time constant" - in other words one of the laser servo adjustments.
Although knowing this does not really change a lot, does it? I mean, now that you know this, are you able to predict what capacitor construction or value will give the best sound?... I'm afraid we still have to discover this by experimentation.

By the way, it is entirely possible that tweaking other parts connected to pins 1-16 of the LA9242M would also result in pronounced improvements as they all supply laser servo logic. Unfortunately, as they are all SMD, fiddling with them is a bit more awkward...
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Old 23rd November 2011, 01:56 PM   #5142
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Hi my cap at 906 has NATCON on it, I have searched the net and only come up with AMETEKncc - Home which don't seem to manufacture caps although they are an electronic controls manufacturer.
It seems odd to me that Sanyo would use such an elusive cap, why not one of their own.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 02:56 PM   #5143
johnm is offline johnm  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_leon View Post
I hate do disagree, but I highly doubt Sanyo would have gone to any lengths optimising a circuit intended for cheap portable players. They likely picked something that was guaranteed to work and left it at that. I mean, most electronics engineers ridicule the very notion that diferent cap types etc. can affect the sound - I somehow don't see them spending a lot of time researching optimal-sounding servo capacitors, if you see what I mean...

According to the boombox schematic (page 22), C906 is connected to pin 10 of LA9242M. The latter's datasheet reveals that pin 10 (TH) is responsible for "Tracking gain time constant" - in other words one of the laser servo adjustments.
Although knowing this does not really change a lot, does it? I mean, now that you know this, are you able to predict what capacitor construction or value will give the best sound?
I must disagree with your disagreement Boomboxes are extremely unforgiving environments for reading a CD. Designing something for that environment is probably more demanding than a 'Hi-Fi' one... The intense vibrations from the nearby built-in speakers make reading a CD without skipping FAR more difficult than the average stand-alone CD player. They seemed to do a very good job designing this board - the fact so many of us are using it and 47-labs (albeit a somewhat different variant) indicates that perhaps Sanyo DOES know what they are doing, and very well too To say they just sort of threw it in there with hardly any thought strikes me as being a little unrealistic...

No I am not able to predict what changes will sound like as this isn't a 'simple' case like a coupling cap (for example) - I trust them to have chosen that value/cap for laser gain for a reason. The fact so many of us (including Peter) ended up going back to this cap (cheap though it appears to be) says a lot. And so what if it is a cheap non-audiophile branded cap? Ultimately, it works & works very well. I think part of the secret of this 'game' is knowing when to leave well alone, as well as going mad changing every part one can see...

As I said I am not anti-modding/experimenting at all (my parts box, wallet and burnt fingers will attest to that ) but I think sometimes we change every part just because we can, without knowing exactly what it is we could be doing to part of the circuit, especially when dealing with the laser gain. It's just from my own experience tweaking this mech. over the past couple years I'd refrain from throwing money at that cap. However obviously I haven't heard your home-made cap - that does sound intriguing and I'll have a look at that link now

Perfectly willing to be proven wrong and all that

- J

Last edited by johnm; 23rd November 2011 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 03:52 PM   #5144
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I do see your point johnm. This cap is indeed a very strange animal, and it is entirely possible that it was picked for a reason (although that reason may have been reliability rather than sound).

Having said that, I designed my cap specifically for C906 and specifically for best sound quality. And while I do agree that most (almost all) caps sound worse than the stock electrolytic, I still maintain that my cap is way beyond vague, partial improvements some reported - it's better by an order of magnitude, across the board.
I have the impression that the transport is slightly more susceptible to skips with my cap installed - so there may be some resilience / sound qality trade off here, likely to do with the low value.

If you are really willing to be proven wrong, then I am willing to provide the opportunity I can lend you a sample cap for testing, if you're interested.
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Old 24th November 2011, 04:17 PM   #5145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_leon View Post
I do see your point johnm. This cap is indeed a very strange animal, and it is entirely possible that it was picked for a reason (although that reason may have been reliability rather than sound).

Having said that, I designed my cap specifically for C906 and specifically for best sound quality. And while I do agree that most (almost all) caps sound worse than the stock electrolytic, I still maintain that my cap is way beyond vague, partial improvements some reported - it's better by an order of magnitude, across the board.
I have the impression that the transport is slightly more susceptible to skips with my cap installed - so there may be some resilience / sound qality trade off here, likely to do with the low value.

If you are really willing to be proven wrong, then I am willing to provide the opportunity I can lend you a sample cap for testing, if you're interested.
Dear uleon. Ok Got some black Gates. So now its a BG fk 2200uf/63v (it says electron transfer in top) and BG x 1000uf/25v and c916 is BG fk 47uf/16v. C906 is 0,1uf duelund Alexander(staus in for now). Just started listen and pleasent improvement.
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Old 24th November 2011, 08:18 PM   #5146
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Well done Kakselbo, you have collected very nearly the best caps possible! Now, if you want to take them to the next level, have a look at my "wood-modding capacitors" guide
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Old 25th November 2011, 10:58 AM   #5147
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Originally Posted by uncle_leon View Post
Well done Kakselbo, you have collected very nearly the best caps possible! Now, if you want to take them to the next level, have a look at my "wood-modding capacitors" guide
Haha..no I think I have to end the shigamania..and start looking towards my yet simple and humble AN dac. I fried something in my shiga because all this taking board of and on I got mixed up in my head that my marking on 8vpower cable was the ground and not plus..ups!! And I guess my playing around with c906 and c908 resulted in together with my mistake in some weird skipping and "black holes". So just did an entire new shiga and together with the BG psu...NIRVANA..no skip,no glitch its just so musical,,! Thank you forum..and uleon.,and peterD
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Old 25th November 2011, 01:28 PM   #5148
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My personal experience with this cap ( C906 ) is that while it is indeed very important, settled on a russian teflon thingie....the most gain to be had in terms of sound quality...ie: tranparancy, dynamics.....is from a really good 5v supply.

I'm using a salas shunt reg and the jump in quality was imense, have a bobken ready to try...will report.
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Old 25th November 2011, 01:39 PM   #5149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Daniel View Post
Previously, I had reservations with regards to some veiling when mods were done according to pdf prepared by Okapi.

However, recently I took this board again, and did few changes: C906 is replaced by 0.1/600 V-Cap TFTF, C908 by 3n3 Wima FKP2 and two electrolytics (C929 and C939) were replaced by 10uF and 15uF Oscons. Everything else exactly as in Okapi pdf. There is of course discreet 5V regulator and now everything seems to sound fine, very close to TL0. I will do more critical listening tests in a week or two, in other system.

The attached board pic is slightly different, as it does not show Okapi pdf file mods, which I'm still using presently. It shows new caps though and 5V regulator.

Peter,

What dac are u using for tests ( listening ) youre own...?
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Old 26th November 2011, 01:40 PM   #5150
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Default changing caps can seriously damage your health

I tried the Oscon in 916 but couldn't quite get away with it so I swapped the nichion muse back in.
I thought I would try a variety of caps in 906 at the same time.
Some skipped some wouldn't read the toc.
I dropped the 0.1uf standard one in and played a disc.
The disc kept stopping at random places, couldn't tie it down to a pattern.
I swapped the laser with a spare and it now plays ok.
I can only presume that the laser assembly does not take kindly to different values of 906.
My advice would be to leave 906 value well alone for your lasers sake.

I have now compared the marantz 63 digital out with the clone and the clone wins hands down, the Marantz sounds muddy and indistinct in comparison.
I didn't think it would be so clear cut , just comparing transports.
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