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Old 11th February 2011, 02:29 PM   #4241
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Guys, don't get too hung up on this whole ESR thing. This is just theory. What matters is how your cap actually sounds in this particular application. I couldn't care less if the regulator is struggling as long as the sound is good.

I was intending to test some Elnas and Rubycons in my Shiga, but after I managed to obtain Black Gates I completely lost my motivation. I tested Panasonics FC and they were worse than BG by a considerable margin (muddy, uninteresting, poor detail).

On a side note: I recently paid £25 for a single BG N cap, only to replace a different value BG N (!) in my Shiga - and I consider it money well spent. Shigaclone with the right components is simply sublime and well worth the investment. To put things into perspective, think for a second how much you would pay for a commercial hi-end transport. And "fully cloned" Shigaclone certainly IS hi-end. Comes with a remote too

Edit: I suppose I could buy and test a few C916 caps like Elna, Rubycon etc. They are cheap, so I would do it "pro publico bono". But buying a bunch of PS-sized audio grade caps would be too expensive - and I know it for a fact, they will all be worse than the Black Gates.

Last edited by uncle_leon; 11th February 2011 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 11th February 2011, 02:31 PM   #4242
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John, if you can still find some Nichicon FX, try them, as they seem to be actually better than BGs in my TL0: Finally, an affordable CD Transport: the Shigaclone story

End yes, I wouldn't care less about that whole ESR thing.
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Old 11th February 2011, 02:36 PM   #4243
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Now, did anybody tried the original electrolytics from a boombox in regulator circuit?

They seem fine for C906 and everywhere else, so why not in a regulator? I just assumed that BGs should be better, but never really bothered to compare them with originals

You can probably find 1000uF values in other sections of boombox.
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Old 11th February 2011, 02:37 PM   #4244
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Some of us do not have money to burn on exensive capacitors alas, expecially caps where the technology is at least 10+ years old (in the case of Black Gate 'N') & need constant power applied to sound their best (not great for the environment). ZLHs are meant to be better and more up to date... I'm sure if Black Gate really were 'the best' (as opposed to the most expensive) Rubycon would still be making them, and getting rich in the process...

As for the regulator, I'd rather have it working as designed - in my opinion it ultimately tends to sound better that way rather than shooting in the dark with boutique parts (been there, done that in the past).

I rather like FCs - sound more fluid to me than Black Gates, still each to his/her own which is the beauty of DIY

I'd just like to know if the ZL I am using after the regulator is actually suitable for the tast or if I should replace it with something else?

- J

Last edited by johnm; 11th February 2011 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 11th February 2011, 02:39 PM   #4245
johnm is offline johnm  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Daniel View Post
John, if you can still find some Nichicon FX, try them, as they seem to be actually better than BGs in my TL0: Finally, an affordable CD Transport: the Shigaclone story

End yes, I wouldn't care less about that whole ESR thing.
Interesting - I think I may even have a spare somewhere here... Thanks Peter
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Old 11th February 2011, 02:41 PM   #4246
johnm is offline johnm  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Daniel View Post
Now, did anybody tried the original electrolytics from a boombox in regulator circuit?

They seem fine for C906 and everywhere else, so why not in a regulator? I just assumed that BGs should be better, but never really bothered to compare them with originals

You can probably find 1000uF values in other sections of boombox.
I still think in some respects my original Shiga with all stock components still had 'something' that the rebuild didn't have. A fluidity to the sound which was 100% addictive, like good analogue. So perhaps you are correct about the regulator circuit there.

Luckily I still have mine and I guess it would be easy to fit it into the Shiga enclosure (which you built) to find out

I'll see...

Interesting to observe that 47-labs didn't use exotic parts in their CD transports either, and I trust their ears

Last edited by johnm; 11th February 2011 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 11th February 2011, 03:41 PM   #4247
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Quote:
Now, did anybody tried the original electrolytics from a boombox in regulator circuit?
I did. They are awful

@johnm - ironically, Rubycon stopped producing Black Gates for financial reasons They decided that they can make more money if they utilise BG production lines for ordinary capacitors, because they can produce them in much higher volumes.

FCs aren't bad caps, and in some applications, like Gainclone, they are actually one of the best choices (although still second to BG N). But in the Shiga, there is no comparison, they are clearly worse.

47 Labs simply used caps which sounded best in their particular devices - which is exactly what we are trying to do here

Last edited by uncle_leon; 11th February 2011 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 11th February 2011, 03:56 PM   #4248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_leon View Post
I did. They are awful
Ironically near the beginning of the Shigaclone thread many said the same thing once they had their Black Gates installed (including myself I have to say). Slowly many realised they'd lost something with the mods and gradually changed back to the original 'el cheapo' caps, with the exception of C916 where most did prefer a Black Gate N or other quality PSU cap.

My experiences with Black Gate caps are mixed, I have to say. Initially I loved them, but over time often found them to be a little 'gritty' sounding. These days I'd gladly trade some of the Black Gates detail/insight for a more fluid overall sound, using a "lesser" cap.

I'm very interested in the current Nichicon line, having been very surprised at how good Nichicon FZ was in the signal path of another project. I also like military spec. metal-encased solid Tantalum (yes! The dreaded tantalum haha!) in signal path areas too. I have yet to try two military spec. tants back-to-back (to create a non-polar cap) but I suspect this may well be something special...

It's all good fun innit
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Old 11th February 2011, 04:29 PM   #4249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_leon View Post
Rubycon stopped producing Black Gates for financial reasons...
From what I've heard directly from Japanese distributor, the owner was in really bad health and apparently nobody took over him.

Black Gate (capacitor) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 11th February 2011, 04:36 PM   #4250
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Quote:
Ironically near the beginning of the Shigaclone thread many said the same thing once they had their Black Gates installed (including myself I have to say). Slowly many realised they'd lost something with the mods and gradually changed back to the original 'el cheapo' caps, with the exception of C916 where most did prefer a Black Gate N or other quality PSU cap.
You must be referring to the guys who replaced ALL the capacitors on the CD board with "audio" caps. This is definitely a bad move, and like you said, results in the "magic" being lost. But the power supply caps are a different story - these should definitely be replaced, and with the highest quality parts you can afford.

Quote:
My experiences with Black Gate caps are mixed, I have to say. Initially I loved them, but over time often found them to be a little 'gritty' sounding. These days I'd gladly trade some of the Black Gates detail/insight for a more fluid overall sound, using a "lesser" cap.
A lot depends on the device... I don't claim that Black Gates are a magical cure for all ailments. Indeed, different models (STD, N, FK, etc.) have significantly different sonic signatures. Some can introduce colourations; STD, can be a bit "edgy", and N can sometimes be a bit too laid-back. But still, if you choose the right ones, it is really hard to improve upon them, especially in power supply applications.
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