Engineering optimal PRaT (Pace, Rhythm, and Timing) - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Source & Line > Digital Source

Digital Source Digital Players and Recorders: CD , SACD , Tape, Memory Card, etc.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 17th March 2008, 01:48 AM   #1
diyAudio Member
 
hollowman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Blog Entries: 3
Default Engineering optimal PRaT (Pace, Rhythm, and Timing)

The Wikipedia entry for Naim audio notes PaRT (Pace, Rhythm, and Timing) as that company’s distinguishing “sonic character”. I’ve read many reviews that seem to specifically support this description -- and generically associate PRaT (and, perhaps, tonal accuracy/neutrality) with myriad UK brands. In the same reviews it is also noted that the Naim units may somewhat lack in detail, transparency and spatial rendition.

Questions:

(1) What specific measurable (tweakable?) “parameters” are linked to PaRT? E.g., slew rate or damping factor of op-amps.

(2) What design (engineering) topologies optimize for PaRT (Pace, Rhythm, and Timing)? The PRaT designs of the analog section of a CDPs or DACs may also apply to pre-amps and amps.

Although I have no experience with Naim, Arcam, etc., some “obvious” answers may be:

- Use external PS box to house transformers.

- Use lots of regulators, notably LM317-based.

- Wiki notes:
“Their unique design approach can be seen, for example, by their use of materials — the semiconductors, heavy toroidal transformers, iconoclastic solid aluminium black cases — their obsessive attention to earthing, screening and isolation from electronic interference, through to their preference for XLR, DIN connector and the BNC connector (as opposed to the RCA connector used by almost all other manufacturers).”

- What else?

(3) What are the trade-offs when designing for PRaT (e.g., detail and transparency, as noted above for Naim?)?
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2008, 05:57 AM   #2
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: 12km off the alaska highway in northern BC
Quote:
What design (engineering) topologies optimize for PaRT (Pace, Rhythm, and Timing)? The PRaT designs of the analog section of a CDPs or DACs may also apply to pre-amps and amps.
hot air and a compay shill at wiki

Oh - I forgot - grab a handfull of terms that mean absolutely nothing in relation to technical equipment from the toolkit of the audiophool.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2008, 10:33 AM   #3
diyAudio Member
 
analog_sa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Sofia
Interesting topic. Obviosuly Prat is not easy to define in subjective terms and completely impossible in objective. It somehow makes more sense applied to turntables rather than amps. I have very little experience with Naim equipment but my own designs have occassinally exhibited more Prat.

(1) Seems like a joke. Objective parameters/measurements don't seem to correlate with obvious sonic features such as tonal balance let alone something as elusive as Prat.

(2) Obsessive star grounding, attention for ground returns and PS distribution; multiple power supplies feeding each stage all contribute towards better timing.

I also believe there is an optimal amount of PS capacitance which offers the best Prat.



(3) I don't think trade-offs are inherent to better Prat. Naim like using really bad coupling caps which simply filter out high frequency detail.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2008, 11:35 AM   #4
Puffin is offline Puffin  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: U.K
There is a Naim Forum, I believe. Maybe they can help ?
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2008, 11:40 AM   #5
SY is offline SY  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
SY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Blog Entries: 1
If it were my concern, I'd just build things the way they do for sound reinforcement equipment. I've been to many concerts where the musicians got the whole audience moving in rhythm or even dancing, even more where the timing subtleties are compelling (try Live at Leeds or the live side of Wheels of Fire), so apparently PA systems aren't deficient in that regard.

The orthodoxen will just get the low end flat and free from distortion and overhang, then let the musicians do the Prat work.
__________________
You might be screaming "No, no, no" and all they hear is "Who wants cake?" Let me tell you something: They all do. They all want cake.- Wilford Brimley
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2008, 12:11 AM   #6
diyAudio Member
 
I_Forgot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Phoenix, Az.
You're looking for objective measurements of subjective qualities. The two are mutually exclusive. Subjective qualities depend on the motivations, mood, and preferences of the observer. You can't design those things into electronic equipment or measure them with test instruments.

I_F
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2008, 12:47 AM   #7
diyAudio Member
 
hollowman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally posted by analog_sa

Objective parameters/measurements don't seem to correlate with obvious sonic features such as tonal balance let alone something as elusive as Prat.
...and...
Quote:
Originally posted by I_Forgot
Subjective qualities depend on the motivations, mood, and preferences of the observer. You can't design those things into electronic equipment or measure them with test instruments.
Somewhat disagree here. This is why I specifically suggested slew rate and damping factor.
Take some other subjective terms like digital "glare" or "harshness". Statements along the lines of the two quotes above were more likely, for example, until jitter was "discovered" in the late 1980s.
This is my humble opinion of course. But, TTBOMK, the association with causation is not a post-hoc fallacy.
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2008, 02:10 AM   #8
cuibono is offline cuibono  United States
diyAudio Member
 
cuibono's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: City of Angles
To me, the main components of PRaT are rhythm and timing. I've always thought of rhythm as being contained mostly in the low end of the frequency spectrum, while timing being a function of the systems ability to change quickly - so we are talking about the ability to reproduce and control the bass end, IMO. I would guess loudspeakers would play a big part here...

Its kind of a stretch to connect a subjective quality (prat) with technical jargon (do opamps have damping factor??). Most of that stuff is marketing bs, and has nothing to do with using LM317 regs. Don't go looking for tweaks or general topologies to satisfy your 'prat' - its all in execution, or how you work everything in together.

And in a larger sense, it really comes down to the performance/recording to convey pace, rhythm and timing, among other things.
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2008, 03:04 AM   #9
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Canandaigua, NY USA
In all honesty, the terminology is meaningless to me. It doesn't relate to any technical aspect of the signal chain, and I doubt twenty people would agree on whether a system possessed it or not. IMO, it's just high end BS designed to advance the agenda of whoever is using the terms. A serious conversation requires terms with well understood and accepted meanings.
__________________
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but at least I'm barking!
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2008, 12:34 PM   #10
Gordy is offline Gordy  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
My view of this:

The term PRaT was most likely dreamed up by a reviewer who wanted to remain a reviewer. In other words the reviewer needed to be seen to be *important*, *knowledgeable* and a *guru* on his chosen subject in order to reinforce his ego and self-esteem, and keep his cosy income and easy job.

From a technical view point it is absolute nonsense and illustrates all that is wrong, or at least questionable and disappointing, in hi-fi marketing.

If the output waveform is an amplified true likeness of the input waveform then the music / sound derived will have whatever pace, rhythem and timing the performer and engineers recorded onto the media.

If you want to know what influences that then you are on the right path to interesting and involving experimentation, except that you have asked the wrong initial question.

Good luck,
G.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pace MBT-100 HaLo6 Equipment & Tools 2 5th September 2009 10:14 PM
Pace MBT-100 Manual? HaLo6 Parts 0 27th July 2009 09:30 PM
Thread Posting and Timing Out and losing the POST KP11520 Everything Else 7 9th November 2007 01:36 PM
North Creek Rhythm Revelators Apogee Multi-Way 9 6th February 2007 03:26 PM
WIKI timing out? tiroth Forum Problems 8 19th April 2004 09:47 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:46 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2