Delta 1010 Clock Mod

[mtl777]

Going back to the PCI card, on the card I'm seeing 10uF 25V caps. Is it perfectly alright, perhaps even better, to replace these caps with same value but higher voltage 35V caps? I plan to replace these with Rubycon ZLG's, and I see that the ZLG 10uF 35V has lower ESR and higher ripple current rating than the ZLG 10uF 25V, and yet there is very little difference in their size, so I think I might as well get the better-spec'd 35V. I heard that replacing with higher voltage caps is alright but would like to confirm this with you experts out there. Thanks!

 

[cuibono]

The caps on the card are probably cheap industrial ones, the Rubycons will definitely be higher quality. But the real question is 'will there be a sonic improvement', and that really depends on what the cap is doing. I can't tell what cap your talking about on the PCI card: but the card looks like its all digital circuitry. Some stuff I definitely would not touch: the ram chip(s) and the ICE logic IC on the right of the board (in the picture). I never heard of anyone say they got any improvement from messing with this stuff.

There are some parts I would mess with: the spdif output of the transmitter chip (U9) can be redone with a nice sonic payoff. I've done this, and it works well. Here is the link: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116969

If U12-U14 are the DAC/ADC codecs, they are important. Upgrading the voltage supply caps could be an improvement. The audio outputs most likely have a filter with caps as part of it - improvements here could be good. I haven't done any of this, but I think you realize these boards are delicate, so proceed with caution. The info you need is in the manufactures datasheets, available on their websites.

Something I don't see on the card is the power supply for the digital side of things - it should be a +5V three pin regulator, I'm guessing labled 7805 (I have the Delta 1010LT, which is setup a little different). Anyway, this supply is really important - lots of parts are dumping noise into it, but it needs to be as stable as possible when doing the analog/digital/analog conversions. Obviously a conflict of interest. I can definitely recommend redoing this part (but its a little complicated). Very similarly, the better (cleaner) the voltage supply going into the analog opamps, the better. Another place to improve things..

Anyway, if you are set on doing cap upgrades, look at the analog side of things - they is more chance of sonic improvements. For instance, the electrolytic coupling caps on the in/outs of the opamps. Not good for sound, try replacing with film caps if possible (although they will be larger). If films are out, try blackgates or panasonic FC series.

 

[mtl777]

Wow, thank you so much, Cuibono! Lots of things for me to try. It's good to find someone with a soundcard similar to mine. But yes, your 1010LT is a little different as it has everything on the PCI card, whereas my 1010 has a breakout box containing the ADC's, DAC's and op-amps and their power supply, and the clock is separately in the PCI card. While the PCI card gets its power from the PC's power supply, the breakout box is powered separately by a 9VAC wall wart.

The caps I'm talking about are C1, C3, C5, C6, C7, C11, C33, C40, C47, and C49 -- in fact all the caps on the blue PCI board. These are all 10uF 25V with the exception of C6 and C7 which are 47uF 10V. Unfortunately I don't know the function of these caps, so I'm just going to replace them all blindly with the same values but better quality ones, hoping to get lucky that there might be a sonic improvement. So is it alright and won't damage anything if these caps are replaced with higher voltage as long as the capacitance values are the same? While there may be no sonic improvement, what I would like to know for now is if it's safe to do this.

Thanks again!

 

[kevinkr]

Wow, thank you so much, Cuibono! Lots of things for me to try. It's good to find someone with a soundcard similar to mine. But yes, your 1010LT is a little different as it has everything on the PCI card, whereas my 1010 has a breakout box containing the ADC's, DAC's and op-amps and their power supply, and the clock is separately in the PCI card. While the PCI card gets its power from the PC's power supply, the breakout box is powered separately by a 9VAC wall wart.

The caps I'm talking about are C1, C3, C5, C6, C7, C11, C33, C40, C47, and C49 -- in fact all the caps on the blue PCI board. These are all 10uF 25V with the exception of C6 and C7 which are 47uF 10V. Unfortunately I don't know the function of these caps, so I'm just going to replace them all blindly with the same values but better quality ones, hoping to get lucky that there might be a sonic improvement. So is it alright and won't damage anything if these caps are replaced with higher voltage as long as the capacitance values are the same? While there may be no sonic improvement, what I would like to know for now is if it's safe to do this.

Thanks again!

It's generally just fine to replace with higher voltage types. Note that if these are typical surface mount caps you can get a considerable improvement in performance with a better through hole cap - just be careful not to lift pads once the new caps are installed. Given their value of 10uF it is quite possible that these are in the audio path.. You might want to try some of the low cost PK black gates in these locations if they are in the audio path. These are still available for the moment from www.percyaudio.com.

 

[mtl777]

It's generally just fine to replace with higher voltage types.

Thanks, Kevin! That's reassuring to know.

Note that if these are typical surface mount caps you can get a considerable improvement in performance with a better through hole cap - just be careful not to lift pads once the new caps are installed. Given their value of 10uF it is quite possible that these are in the audio path.. You might want to try some of the low cost PK black gates in these locations if they are in the audio path. These are still available for the moment from www.percyaudio.com.

I already have the Rubycon ZL/ZLG/ZLH. I was sold to these after reading this thread. Look for the posts by Crazy_D, who claims the ZA/ZL are better than Black Gate N series. I hope this is really true. The ZA is discontinued, though, so the ZLG is the next best in this group.

 

[cuibono]

While there may be no sonic improvement, what I would like to know for now is if it's safe to do this.

Like Kevin said, its is just fine to replace one cap with a higher voltage one. But the danger isn't in the voltage rating - the danger is in the overall delicacy of the board. I would avoid messing with anything unless I had a good idea it was going to improve things, because of the high risk of messing some random part up (like the two channels you recently had go out). But it is fun anyways.

Like I think I said before, I would only replace caps around the ADC/DACs, the analog sections, and the power supplies. I wouldn't touch the caps in the rest of the digital section, which is what it looks like the PCI board is mostly. A mistake here would likely take down the whole soundcard, and would be just about untraceable.

 

[cuibono]

Looking at the picture of the PCI board again, some of the caps you mentioned may be PSU bypass caps, which could be good to improve (although there is no guaranteed improvement, because they are all in the digital section). Look up the pinout for PCI cards, and they will show you where the supply voltages come into the board. I'd guess the board will use +5V supplies. Try changing the caps near the +5V inputs pins (by tracing leads) and the supply pins of the chips, particularly the cirrus logic chips.

 

[mtl777]

Hey I'm back! Been busy and thought this thread was dead but happy to see it's still alive.

Looking at the picture of the PCI board again, some of the caps you mentioned may be PSU bypass caps, which could be good to improve (although there is no guaranteed improvement, because they are all in the digital section). Look up the pinout for PCI cards, and they will show you where the supply voltages come into the board. I'd guess the board will use +5V supplies. Try changing the caps near the +5V inputs pins (by tracing leads) and the supply pins of the chips, particularly the cirrus logic chips.

Would it be good to replace those supply bypass caps with higher values? If so, what values should I replace them with? (I'm going to replace only the electrolytics -- these are all 10uF at present. I won't touch any SMD's.)

Thanks!

 

[Rosewell]

What value caps should I use?

I have a question and since it is related to cap locations that are discussed in this thread I thought it would be appropriate to post it here. I purchased a delta 1010 and it worked flawlessly for 11 months. One day I switched my PC on and the light indicating power to the breakout box would no longer light. The breakout box is now no longer functioning. I tried a few different cables from the breakout box to PCI card and I also tested the power supply with a dmm. The power supply tested fine, but just for the hell of it I ordered a new replacement supply and still nothing. I'm fairly busy and I haven't had time to open up the box to take a look until now. In the past I have attended a few basic electricity / electronics courses, but they are fuzzy now and I am certainly no engineer. I haven't tested any of the capacitors yet, but I am fairly certain C14 has gone bad. Upon visual inspection the top of that cap seems to be puffed out a bit. C17 looks fine but since they appear to work as a pair based on what I read I would like to replace both of them, so the question is what type of capacitor should I replace them with? I have three different types at my disposal to choose from. They are as follows: United Chemi-Con 470uF 63V +-20% KZE Series 5000 hour life at 105C, Panasonic-ECG 470uF 63V +-20% EB Series 10000 hour life at 105C, Nichicon 560uF 63V +-20% HE Series 5000 hour life at 105C. I'm not sure that replacing C14 and C17 will bring the box back to life, but based on this text I am hoping someone with the knowledge will give me their opinion. If I seem to be on the right track witch cap out of the above should I go with. The Panasonic is double the life of the Chemi-Con, so should I go with the Panasonic? Is there any advantage gained by using the Nichicon which has a slightly higher capacitance value, or will the larger value kill my box. My 1010 setup never disappointed me, so I don't care about modding anything. I just want my breakout box to function again because another $500 - $600 to replace this is not an option for me right now. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Sorry for the long winded possibly misplaced post. Hopefully this makes sense to someone.

 

[cuibono]

use any capacitor, as long as it doesn't have a lower capacitance or voltage rating than the one you're replacing. going a little higher capacitance in a psu won't hurt anything, might even help. make sure you observe cap polarity!

hope you find the problem..

 

[mtl777]

Re: What value caps should I use?

I have a question and since it is related to cap locations that are discussed in this thread I thought it would be appropriate to post it here. I purchased a delta 1010 and it worked flawlessly for 11 months. One day I switched my PC on and the light indicating power to the breakout box would no longer light. The breakout box is now no longer functioning. I tried a few different cables from the breakout box to PCI card and I also tested the power supply with a dmm. The power supply tested fine, but just for the hell of it I ordered a new replacement supply and still nothing. I'm fairly busy and I haven't had time to open up the box to take a look until now. In the past I have attended a few basic electricity / electronics courses, but they are fuzzy now and I am certainly no engineer. I haven't tested any of the capacitors yet, but I am fairly certain C14 has gone bad. Upon visual inspection the top of that cap seems to be puffed out a bit. C17 looks fine but since they appear to work as a pair based on what I read I would like to replace both of them, so the question is what type of capacitor should I replace them with? I have three different types at my disposal to choose from. They are as follows: United Chemi-Con 470uF 63V +-20% KZE Series 5000 hour life at 105C, Panasonic-ECG 470uF 63V +-20% EB Series 10000 hour life at 105C, Nichicon 560uF 63V +-20% HE Series 5000 hour life at 105C. I'm not sure that replacing C14 and C17 will bring the box back to life, but based on this text I am hoping someone with the knowledge will give me their opinion. If I seem to be on the right track witch cap out of the above should I go with. The Panasonic is double the life of the Chemi-Con, so should I go with the Panasonic? Is there any advantage gained by using the Nichicon which has a slightly higher capacitance value, or will the larger value kill my box. My 1010 setup never disappointed me, so I don't care about modding anything. I just want my breakout box to function again because another $500 - $600 to replace this is not an option for me right now. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Sorry for the long winded possibly misplaced post. Hopefully this makes sense to someone.

First of all, if you do not intend to mod your 1010 but only want to fix it, I would advise that you send it in for warrantly repair. M-Audio has a very liberal warranty policy especially on 1010's because of the many complaints during its early releases related to the capacitor problem which is what you are experiencing. Don't touch anything in your 1010, and don't tell M-Audio that you already opened it. BTW, what's the color of your 1010's PCB? If it's green then it's really old, when the capacitor problem was prevalent. The new ones are blue.

If, however, you intend to mod your 1010 and don't care about losing the warranty, then my advice is to find the lowest ESR, highest ripple current rated caps that will fit on the cramped space. You can replace with higher cap value with a little downside of causing a slight increase in heat. I replaced the C14 and C17 caps in my PSU with Chemi-Con KY series 560uF 63V which has the same specs as their KZE series except that the KY has longer lifetime hours. To be on the safe side, I made some heat sinks and installed them on the +/-15V regulators. Not sure if this was necessary, but better to be safe than sorry.

The thing with the 1010's PSU is that the cramped space severely limits your choice of caps. Of the alternatives available, I found the KY series to be the best choice.

Good luck!

 

[Rosewell]

My board is blue and is labeled REV. C 1999. Thank you both for your advice and opinions. Knowing very little about power supply design I needed some quick answers. I am going to replace both caps and see what happens. Rather than deal with M-Audio I am willing to take the risk for the potential benefit of a quick fix.

 

[Rosewell]

Thanks again for the advice. I replaced those to caps (C14 C17) with the 10,000 hour Panasonic caps I have and I'm back in business. I swear this thing sounds fine to me even without any mods, but I think how things sound is always subjective.

 

[mtl777]

I have one final question (hopefully) before this project is done. For the Delta 1010 PSU caps C22 and C60, which are 2200uF 25V pre-regulator caps before the +5V regs, I would like to know which of the following is better to use:

NIC Components NRSY series
- or -
United Chemi-Con KZH series

Based on the KZH having lower impedance and higher ripple current rating, the KZH might be better than the NRSY. However, the KZH is documented as intended for PC motherboard applications whereas the NRSY is touted for switchers and converters, so I'm wondering if the KZH might not be as good as the NRSY for power supply applications, or if there are some specs other than impedance and ripple current that are more important to consider in my PSU application.

Your help is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[cuibono]

I would go with whatever one is easiest/cheaper to get - you don't need high ripple handling, and particularly low impedance is not a must either. The circuit application is not very demanding. Personally I buy panasonic fc series.

 

[mtl777]

The thing is, I already have both -- I got them as free samples. So I must choose one or the other. If you had to make a choice, which one would it be?

Thanks!

 

[cuibono]

Free samples are good

Choose either one, I doubt it makes any difference - low impedance is a good thing...