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Old 17th December 2007, 09:07 PM   #21
cuibono is offline cuibono  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by mtl777



So I now strongly suspect that the bad breakout cable was the original source of my troubles.

Quote:
Originally posted by kevinkr


....aren't likely to be the cause of the problems you are currently having.

I agree with Kevin - I doubt the smd caps are your problem (and it is very likely you will create more problems by trying to remove them).

For the most part, electronics work in a logical manner - so the question is, how did your breakout cable cause the noise in your two output channels? Did you inspect the cable at all? It seems like a continuity tester might easily tell you something valuable (either a short/open or no fault at all). It is very possible there is nothing wrong with your breakout cable, and the problem lies elsewhere. Generally, something needs to be repeated to draw conclusions about it. None the less, you should get out your scope, and trace where the noise is coming from. That will be the most productive way of fixing the problem.

Get out your meter and your scope. Do measurements, get hard, repeatable data, then act - otherwise, youre working in the dark.
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Old 18th December 2007, 07:16 AM   #22
mtl777 is offline mtl777  United States
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What makes it hard if not impossible to use a scope on the 1010's D/A board is because the separate A/D board sit's on top of it and blocks access to it. The two boards are separated by standoffs and have a 25-pin header connection to each other. Also, due to relay switching, the breakout box won't power up unless it is connected to the PCI card via the breakout cable and the PC is on. In other words, what I'm trying to say is that the unit and interconnections must be assembled completely in order to power-on the breakout box. In that state, the D/A board is inaccesible because it is underneath the A/D board. That is why I am resorting to component elimination logic methods in trying to fix it.

Regarding repeatability, I have repeatedly checked that whenever I used the bad breakout cable my mouse would malfunction. Replacing that cable with a good one makes the mouse work fine again. It may not seem related to the problem, but the mere fact that that bad cable causes my mouse to malfunction makes the cable highly suspect. If it can mess up the mouse which is not directly connected to it, how much more the D/A board which is its first connection on the breakout box.
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Old 18th December 2007, 12:19 PM   #23
cuibono is offline cuibono  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by mtl777
I have repeatedly checked that whenever I used the bad breakout cable my mouse would malfunction.

Ah, a very good start. I realize the board may be hard to get at. You probably don't want to go probing in cramped places, because if you short something out, it might not be pretty.

But where there is a will, there is a way. I highly encourage you to find a way to probe the analog outputs. It is only way to 'know' what you are doing.

Good luck...
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Old 19th December 2007, 07:25 AM   #24
mtl777 is offline mtl777  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by cuibono

Good luck...
Thanks! I really need that.

Quick question... The SMD caps all look the same. Are they really different values or are they just reading differently because they were measured in-circuit?
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Old 19th December 2007, 01:50 PM   #25
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by mtl777


Thanks! I really need that.

Quick question... The SMD caps all look the same. Are they really different values or are they just reading differently because they were measured in-circuit?

Probably not, the 0.9uF - 1.15uF are probably 1uF 20% tolerance, the 0.44uF is probably a 0.47uF, etc. That said it is extremely unlikely that these caps are the culprit in the problems you are having - and before you even consider replacing them you need to figure out what they are doing. Try to determine whether or not they are supply bypasses or coupling caps - if bypass caps its unlikely they have anything to do with this problem. You should probably be suspecting op-amps or maybe even some of those new caps you installed. You might want to find out whether or not the manufacturer will service your hacked cards..
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Old 19th December 2007, 09:26 PM   #26
mtl777 is offline mtl777  United States
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Is it common practice of manufacturers to make unmarked SMD caps that look exactly the same but are of different values? Why would they make it hard for troubleshooting?
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Old 20th December 2007, 03:03 PM   #27
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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Yes, ceramic caps traditionally are unmarked, resistors smaller than about 0805 are usually unmarked due to lack of space.

All of this stuff goes through incircuit and functional testing when manufactured and the factory techs have schematics, assembly drawings and other information to troubleshoot assembly line fall out so markings aren't needed.

Authorized service people will have the same information to allow them to fix things as well.

A lot of this stuff is considered uneconomic to repair even at the factory and if found defective and also sufficiently low cost may simply be scrapped as the more economic approach.

Have you tried to get the service information online. Try the Turkish Denom site if still around and just google for information. I have found service manuals for a lot of things this way.
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Old 22nd December 2007, 06:55 AM   #28
mtl777 is offline mtl777  United States
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Man, it's so hard to find a service manual for the 1010!

I have another question though. What better diodes would you recommend to replace the four 1N4001 rectifier diodes in the 1010's PSU? Would the UF4001 be good? ...

http://www.vishay.com/docs/88755/uf4001.pdf

In case you need to know first how the 1010's PSU works, it uses a 9 VAC wall wart. There are two separate half-wave rectifier/doublers which convert the 9 VAC to DC and then double it. One of the rectifier/doublers works on the positive phase of the 9 VAC to produce a doubled positive DC voltage. The other rectifier/doubler works on the negative phase of the 9 VAC to produce a doubled negative DC voltage. The resulting doubled +/- DC voltages are then sent as input to the +/-15 VDC regulators, which then convert this input to a regulated +/-15 VDC output supply for the op amps.

The four 1N4001 diodes are the ones next to each other (D1, D2, D3, D4) in this picture:


Click the image to open in full size.


Here is a crude diagram I made of the PSU layout, with the red lines depicting the connections (it's pretty rough and incomplete, just enough to give you an idea):


Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 27th December 2007, 05:00 PM   #29
mtl777 is offline mtl777  United States
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Now that the holiday rush is over, I hope someone would have the time to answer my question in my last post. Anyone, please?

Thanks!
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Old 27th December 2007, 05:10 PM   #30
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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Yes the UF4001 which is a fast recovery rectifier would be fine - for better reliability I would probably go with the UF4002 as it has a higher piv rating.

I'd also replace D5 and D12 - the ones feeding the 5V regulators..

Have you resolved the noise issue?
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