Hi Poynton, hi Rfbrw,
I hope you are not including me when you say 'experts'. The opposite is truer in my case...
It is only that my ears tell me that my ugly transport produces better sound when not using the powerful magnetic clamp that came stock with it. At least two other people seem to agree... but perception is tricky...I would not bet a finger for it
Here I am lost. Why ask for proof if you can test it on your own?
The option of discarding it from known theory is risky, also.
I was warned by Void:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=4034&perpage=25&highlight=&pagenumber=17
Observation-> hypothesis-> test...etc
Occidental view point.
Cheers,
M
I hope you are not including me when you say 'experts'. The opposite is truer in my case...
It is only that my ears tell me that my ugly transport produces better sound when not using the powerful magnetic clamp that came stock with it. At least two other people seem to agree... but perception is tricky...I would not bet a finger for it
Here I am lost. Why ask for proof if you can test it on your own?
The option of discarding it from known theory is risky, also.
I was warned by Void:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=4034&perpage=25&highlight=&pagenumber=17
Observation-> hypothesis-> test...etc
Occidental view point.
Cheers,
M
Does the magnetic field rotate?
I seem to remember this coming up elsewhere.
I would imagine that the north (or south) pole of the magnet faces the metal disc with the other pole pointing into the air.
The magnet may rotate but in my mind, anyway, the field would remain constant. ( minor manufacturing faults disregarded.)
A constant non-changing field does not induce any current.
Andy
I seem to remember this coming up elsewhere.
I would imagine that the north (or south) pole of the magnet faces the metal disc with the other pole pointing into the air.
The magnet may rotate but in my mind, anyway, the field would remain constant. ( minor manufacturing faults disregarded.)
A constant non-changing field does not induce any current.
Andy
poynton said:
Why would you think the clamp effect is caused by magnetic field? It can equally well be mechanically induced, considering how clamping mechanism is implemeted in CD-Pro.
I was listening to Shigaraki with magnetic clamp and to me it sounded better than Flatfish with screw in acrylic clamp.
Hi Andy,
Assuming there are no other unintentional effects, it should not matter. The clamp that couples the CD to the table will perform as required. Nothing more will make any difference.
As for magnetic clamps, the table forms the other half of the magnetic circuit. Therefore they are stationary with respect to each other. In this case, there will be no moving field to create eddy currents or any other effect. The CD itself is plastic an non-ferrous metal, so no effect there either. The main advantage is that the upper clamp disconnects completely from everything else, so you have a simpler rotating system.
A pressure clamp does it's job well, except that the thrust bearing wears and induces vibration into the system. It also couples the chassis or sub chassis to the rotating system at another point.
A clamp applied by the user normally uses some form of mechanical means to apply pressure to clamp the CD. The main problem here is that we humans tend to push down, sometimes driving the table downwards. This throws out the the focal distance and may even allow the CD to contact the pickup housing. That and it's more work!
In the end, I prefer not to trust human fingers and allow mechanics to take over. Much more reliable and easier too. The magnetic clamp would seem to be the way to go as long as it has been designed without major faults. I had to add that.
-Chris
Assuming there are no other unintentional effects, it should not matter. The clamp that couples the CD to the table will perform as required. Nothing more will make any difference.
As for magnetic clamps, the table forms the other half of the magnetic circuit. Therefore they are stationary with respect to each other. In this case, there will be no moving field to create eddy currents or any other effect. The CD itself is plastic an non-ferrous metal, so no effect there either. The main advantage is that the upper clamp disconnects completely from everything else, so you have a simpler rotating system.
A pressure clamp does it's job well, except that the thrust bearing wears and induces vibration into the system. It also couples the chassis or sub chassis to the rotating system at another point.
A clamp applied by the user normally uses some form of mechanical means to apply pressure to clamp the CD. The main problem here is that we humans tend to push down, sometimes driving the table downwards. This throws out the the focal distance and may even allow the CD to contact the pickup housing. That and it's more work!
In the end, I prefer not to trust human fingers and allow mechanics to take over. Much more reliable and easier too. The magnetic clamp would seem to be the way to go as long as it has been designed without major faults. I had to add that.
-Chris
Hi,
CD tracks are 1.6 micron apart, that's 625 tracks in each mm, CD transports use a lens with focussing comparable to a good microscope, both the focussing and tracking need to be extremely accurate (1 micron / 0.16 micron or better, a hair is about 100 micron, you'll get the point...)
If guess it's difficult for a magnetic puck not influence the tiny coils controlling the lens. (And even if the magnetic field was perfectly symmetric: the lens is constantly moving in that field because of servo corrections, CD eccentricity, I think that could still influence the coils.)
I almost don't dare to say this here: even a static field of a non-magnetic puck has an influence. If we demagnetize (remove static fields) screw-on type pucks, we can hear an improvement (can be heard easily in a very good system). Of course you won't hear a difference if your CD or other parts are static/magnetic too.
Observed differences are similar (higher resolution, more variety in timbres, more micro and macro dynamics, more quiet, silent background). It's time for some serious jitter measurements...
Btw. we distribute the Shigaraki transport in two versions with magnetic and screw type puck, screw type is always preferred in A/B comparisons. However some find the difference small and choose for the convenience of the magnetic puck (and lower price).
But there are more reasons why the non-magnetic puck sounds different. For our research (we're trying to make the best possible CD player we've created and tested a large range of pucks and spindles (all screw-on type), and everything in the design seems to matter, not only weight, weight distribution and pressure, but also the contact points/surfaces with the CD, materials, etc. It all influences the vibrations (and so the jitter pattern and the sound).
On the other hand, I don't want to exaggerate the problem of a magnetic puck, there are good transports with magnetic pucks. Usually there are bigger problems in CD-transports (also the expensive ones). The puck is not the weakest link.
And all of this wouldn't be a problem if we could get rid of the jitter at the DAC, but I haven't heard that in practice yet. It would be very cool if we don't need ridiculously expensive transports anymore to get the best from CD.
CD tracks are 1.6 micron apart, that's 625 tracks in each mm, CD transports use a lens with focussing comparable to a good microscope, both the focussing and tracking need to be extremely accurate (1 micron / 0.16 micron or better, a hair is about 100 micron, you'll get the point...)
If guess it's difficult for a magnetic puck not influence the tiny coils controlling the lens. (And even if the magnetic field was perfectly symmetric: the lens is constantly moving in that field because of servo corrections, CD eccentricity, I think that could still influence the coils.)
I almost don't dare to say this here: even a static field of a non-magnetic puck has an influence. If we demagnetize (remove static fields) screw-on type pucks, we can hear an improvement (can be heard easily in a very good system). Of course you won't hear a difference if your CD or other parts are static/magnetic too.
Observed differences are similar (higher resolution, more variety in timbres, more micro and macro dynamics, more quiet, silent background). It's time for some serious jitter measurements...
Btw. we distribute the Shigaraki transport in two versions with magnetic and screw type puck, screw type is always preferred in A/B comparisons. However some find the difference small and choose for the convenience of the magnetic puck (and lower price).
But there are more reasons why the non-magnetic puck sounds different. For our research (we're trying to make the best possible CD player
we've created and tested a large range of pucks and spindles (all screw-on type), and everything in the design seems to matter, not only weight, weight distribution and pressure, but also the contact points/surfaces with the CD, materials, etc. It all influences the vibrations (and so the jitter pattern and the sound).On the other hand, I don't want to exaggerate the problem of a magnetic puck, there are good transports with magnetic pucks. Usually there are bigger problems in CD-transports (also the expensive ones). The puck is not the weakest link.
And all of this wouldn't be a problem if we could get rid of the jitter at the DAC, but I haven't heard that in practice yet. It would be very cool if we don't need ridiculously expensive transports anymore to get the best from CD.
maxlorenz said:When I saw a dismantled HDD it looked so much HiTech than my CDPRO that I felt (feel) ch**ted.
Don't worry, I'm presently using transport that I took out of $50 boombox and it rivals CDPRO. And all those ideas came from looking inside Shigaraki, which I liked a lot
Attachments
On my CD-Pro I'm using non magnetic clamp which is made out of Marigo mat, CD-Pro clamp with removed magnet and brass insert added for weight. That clamp made substantial improvement over standard magnetic clamp supplied with the mechanism.
I tried it also on a transport pictured previously, but I still preferred the magnetic clamp that came with a boombox: the sound is more open and airy.
I will later try to install a turntable with 3 springs that hold CD, like in Rega Apollo.
I tried it also on a transport pictured previously, but I still preferred the magnetic clamp that came with a boombox: the sound is more open and airy.
I will later try to install a turntable with 3 springs that hold CD, like in Rega Apollo.
Attachments
maxlorenz said:
rfbrw said:
It's very difficult to get a clean signal out of a computer. We tried many solutions, f.i. studio gear like a Lynx professional interface card (has a low jitter clock) or reclocking with a Big Ben masterclock. But it's no match for a good transport. We also tried the squeezebox wireless, it's a noisy computer by itself, but with some essential modifications the results are reasonable. But still no match for a good transport. I hope someone finds a solution soon.
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