music from PC

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I’d like to use the PC as source for a second HiFi system (consisting in an integrated tube amplifier having an input sensitivity of 1 V rms and a CD-player Marantz CD63 S.E. + a couple of 93 dB speakers).
Unfortunately, the PC is 10 mt far from amplifier and CD-player.

What should I utilize to obtain a “good” signal for the amplifier?

An audio card … is not appropriate (10 mt of RCA-coassial cable … is too much for an audio card).
An USB device … is not appropriate (because it is longer than the 1.5 mt suggeted).

I think that a D/A converter with a SPDIF input could represent a possible solution.
The question is…which specific commercial devise to utilize?
I do not know any specific device.

Many thanks
 
Look at this specific USB DAC, I already mentioned aboit it. It has separate power supply, galvanic isolation from PC and preatty good sound. w/o box it costs only 75USD. I sink it's a good solution for deck PC audio. For mobile 230V reqirement is troble.
 

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USB 1.1 used for DAC = not that great an idea as the best it can do is 16 bit/44k or 16bit/48k audio.

USB 2.0 used for DAC is much, much better = 24 bit/48k or 24bit/98k (in many cases).

USB 2.0 extensions = http://industrialcomponent.com/vigor/vactive.html . or . http://industrialcomponent.com/bafo/bf3000.html ... these share the same USB hub chip, BUT either will "handshake" and degrade potential USB 2.0 performance to 24 bit/48k or worse. (You can "daisy chain" several of these for up to 15 meters [48 feet] and still pass 24bit/48k.)

The SPDIF scenario is much better as a DAC, with the potential of a "pure" digital to digital (coaxial or optical) interface between PC and DAC = better isolation between PC switching power and the external DAC conversion to analog audio resulting in better signal to noise reduction. Inexpensive example: http://industrialcomponent.com/maudio/us99130.html for 24bit/96k bandwidth, even when using the USB 2.0 extensions above ...

My usual rant: Is 24bit important? IMOP, yes definately as all DVD movie sound tracks are 24bit/48k or better and DVD-Audio discs can exceed 24bit/192k bandwidth. ("All CDs suck" - Bob Dylan refering to the abysmal quality of currently marketed 16bit music, even from his own company, Sony.)
=======
Mercenary announcement: I work for the company that operates the web catalog links above, but not for Sony. ;)
 
Antonio Tucci: " ... and the SqueezeBox ? ..."

Yes!! I have one of those at the office ... I Love It, wouldn't know how to get decent iTune / Internet radio without it. I also consider it to be as good as it gets for under US$1000.00.

SQBx DAC is 24bit/96k and easily hooks directly to any analog stereo or multichannel amp (with or without a pre-amp). Set the levels on your amp and use the SQBx remote for level control & channel selections ...
.....
Mercenary announcement: We were a dealer for the SqueezeBox (and other http://slimdevices.com stuff) until recently. We had to give it up when Logitech bought the company = their marketing folks don't do it our way. ... But that in no way detracts from the value of this fine gadget = highly recommended.
 
I_Forgot: " ... I am not a believer in mythology. I like to see numbers. If there aren't any numbers, there isn't any engineering. ..." From your link above.

To some extent I would agree with this, however there are certain aspects of any well engineered device that does require a bit of art. Examples might be the Jaguar XKE, Apple Laptops, some office furniture ... or this device, the SqueezeBox III. ... well engineered equipment or application that appeals to even "purest" engineers' sense of taste and sensibilities resulting in a good piece of engineering being "great".

" ... There is a lot of effort involved in setting up the library ... Some geekiness is prerequisite. ... Setting it all up requires a geek ..."

This put me off for a time even though I've been working with digital gadgets for several decades. I expected the SQBx to be a device that supposedly easily interfaces with iTunes to be less complicated to setup and use. My advise to the less geeky: deal with it, it is well worth the struggle ... :confused:

Re: Quality verses Quantity = a Terabyte may not be enough ...

" ... The CD is dead. As a music storage medium it is as dead as Edison cylinder records. They take up space and clutter up the living room. ..."

The CD is dead for several other reasons as well. The SQBx (aka SB3) and several other digital devices point the direction that quality audio is headed and the poor quality, low resolution 16-bit CD scenario just doesn't make it anymore, even as a backup. ... modern consumer CD audio quality being generally poor, overly compressed and overdriven to the point of maximum SPL density and associated distortion = walls of noise without any distinction between the music and the musician. ("All CDs suck - Bob Dylan.) :bawling:

I_Forgot (Mark): If you really are into the music as it appears you are, I'm sure you can dig up a CD copy of Carlos Santana's decent CD and compare it to the same album on DVD-Audio (Amazon search: "santana supernatural" shows both). A real eye opener comparison, the DVD-Audio version being a completely new experience, mostly because the mix down results = separation between the various musician. You can actually hear Eric and Carlos' guitar dual as they meant it to be and Eagle Eye's vocals come across as he would have prefered, performing with the band instead of on top of it. (As close to vinyl as you can get.) ... :hot:

As for your favorite, Tom Waits, you may have to go to Europe to find anything digital that is good enough to keep. Amazon.de search "tom waits" and get "Night on Earth - SZ-Cinemathek", DVD video with master tracks ADC to 24bit/48k PAL (zone 2). It does sound better, more dynamic, you can hear the pauses and the spit hitting the microphones ... (I'm sure you have the resources to snag the tracks from somewhere.) :cool:
 
I_Forgot,

Your comments on internet radio are spot on.

Man, this is exciting and I want to get some good quality out of my pc. Trouble is I don't know anything about this stuff, all I've done is take the audio out from my pc and plug it into the stereo. I don't know what soundcard I have or even how to find out.

Can someone point me to a good source of information on this stuff? Like what's the difference between a soundcard and a USB dac?

Can I somehow take a digital out from the computer and plug it into my dac which is 32/44.1/48 capable?

I am just interested in internet radio at the moment, but who knows, and seriously folks this is the most excited I have been about music for a long time!
 
I'll second that for InterNet Radio ... :D

" ... I'm talking about the thousands of internet only "radio" stations that play the 99.9% of stuff that never gets played on broadcast radio. Some of that stuff is pretty good! ..." From I_Forget link = http://mark.rehorst.com/Audio_System/index.htm .

Internet Radio Reviews: we should start another thread!! These work just fine through the SqueezeBox:
http://krsh.com (64k) ... http://www.cruizeradio.net (64k) ... http://www.thecrystalmethod.com/ (96k) ... http://www.radionigel.com/ (96k) ... :D

stoolpigeon: " ... Like what's the difference between a soundcard and a USB dac? ... Can I somehow take a digital out from the computer and plug it into my dac which is 32/44.1/48 capable? ..."

Get a better DAC?

IMOP: External DACs and better than "sound cards" = less PC power supply noise, generally. Also IMOP and the opinions of most professional studio musicians and engineers, FireWire connected DACs are better than USB = FW has vanishingly small "jitter", lower "latency" and bigger bandwidth (like to 24bit/384k = 8+ channels ~ twice Dolby 7.x / THX) ... :eek:

Also, the SqueezeBox can act as a very good DAC ... connect it via network to your computer and rip and roar = 24bit/96k with good noise & distortion numbers. :eek:
 
stoolpigeon said:
I_Forgot,
Your comments on internet radio are spot on.

Unfortunately, like all other good things, internet radio is close to becoming the same crap that is on the radio. There has been some legal manuevering to raise the royalty payments that internet radio stations have to pay with the goal of driving them out of existence.


Man, this is exciting and I want to get some good quality out of my pc. Trouble is I don't know anything about this stuff, all I've done is take the audio out from my pc and plug it into the stereo. I don't know what soundcard I have or even how to find out.

Can someone point me to a good source of information on this stuff? Like what's the difference between a soundcard and a USB dac?

A sound card has audio processing circuits including a D to A converter and produces analog outputs that will directly drive speakers or analog line outputs to drive and external amplifier.

A USB DAC takes digital data streaming to it via USB and converts it to analog to drive an amp and speakers.

Most sound cards are located inside your PC which is a very noisy environment, so the resulting audio is not terribly high quality. The idea behind a USB DAC is to get the D to A conversion out of the PC with all that noise. The problem is that USB has limited cable length so even if you get the DAC out of the PC, the PC may still have to be in the listening room and you're going to hear the fans.

The SB3 recieves wi-fi network signals from your router and provides a large display and clean remote control interface between the computer(s) and your stereo. Performance is very high, and there are no cooling fans to make noise.


Can I somehow take a digital out from the computer and plug it into my dac which is 32/44.1/48 capable?

Some PCs have digital outputs for audio- TOSLINK optical and SPDIF coaxial are both pretty common. You can probably connect one or the other to your DAC.


I am just interested in internet radio at the moment, but who knows, and seriously folks this is the most excited I have been about music for a long time!

Internet radio, as it is now, may not be around much longer. Too many people with deep enough pockets to buy congressmen and senators don't like you to be able to hear music without paying for the privilege.

In the next election I urge everyone to do as I do and vote against all incumbents. Throw the bums out!

I_F
 
Internet radio, as it is now, may not be around much longer. Too many people with deep enough pockets to buy congressmen and senators don't like you to be able to hear music without paying for the privilege.

:whazzat: This is a very US centric view. There are hundreds of other countries across the globe that could and do host internet radio stations who do not have to abide by US laws. Are the US law makers going to make it illegal for US citizens to listen to Internet radio? If these are how your lawmakers work you should move to another country :D

Getting reasonable stream quality due to international links streaming into the US is another matter....

On the topic of internet radio, having 48K or 96K quality is like listening to the worse MP3 encodes. However it should be possible with 128K or 196K links using newer codecs like AAC+ or Octoshape have some potential. I'd be interested in any links to 'audiophile' internet radio stations. A good one I listen to is radioparadise, which is US based so will be affected by these new laws.

Regards,
Dean
 
I_Forgot: " ... internet radio is close to becoming the same **** that is on the radio. There has been some legal manuevering to raise the royalty payments ... "

Thanks to EMI and Apple putting 24bit DVD-A quality media and downloads on line, this will change ... The US based music producers will very soon realize they are on the doo doo list as far as us consumers are concerned ... the music bloggs are already talking about this. ... How do you spell Sony? Is that with two yahoos or one?

" ... Most sound cards are located inside your PC which is a very noisy environment, so the resulting audio is not terribly high quality. The idea behind a USB DAC is to get the D to A conversion out of the PC with all that noise. The problem is that USB has limited cable length so even if you get the DAC ..."

Again: Refer to FireWire where the copper cable length can be 33 feet, double or triple that with repeaters (been there, done that = works fine) or if you need

" ... TOSLINK optical and SPDIF coaxial are both pretty common. You can probably connect one or the other to your DAC. ..."

TOSLINK optical is the most practical optical isolation there is for full speed, reduced noise, digital to analog conversion (DAC) ...
... USB over optical is about US$200 (but USB 1.1 only :bawling: )
... FireWire over optical is about US$800 + fiber (! but it will go 1/4 mile ! :hot: )
... TOSLink optical cable to about 35 feet is ~~ US$25 or so for the cable with better results than USB and close to FireWire quality = almost as good as the recording studio. There are "pro level" TOSLINK / SPDIF scenarios that can exceed the consumer stuff = like out to true multi channel 5.1 / 24bit/96k, and the DACs are about the same $$ as USB. :cool:

(Mercenary announcements: FYI: http://usbstuff.com/opticis.html ... http://firewirestuff.com/opticisfw.html ... http://qvs.com/audio-default.asp#fiber ( http://qvs.com/prodimages/FCTK-35K_LR.jpg ) ;) ... but this is still my personal recommendation = FireWire I/O plus SPDIF (coaxial) I/O with balanced analog I/O ports and a true 24bit/96k X 4 channel DAC = http://industrialcomponent.com/firewirestuff/audiofire4.html )
 
"" ... Too many people with deep enough pockets to buy congressmen and senators don't like you to be able to hear music without paying for the privilege. ...""

deandob: " ... This is a very US centric view. There are hundreds of other countries across the globe that could and do host internet radio stations who do not have to abide by US laws. Are the US law makers going to make it illegal for US citizens to listen to Internet radio? If these are how your lawmakers work you should move to another country ..."

Yes, will you help us get rid of them ?? We would offer to pay you to take them pesky politicos away. ... :D

Re: Great International Internet radio: Favorites = http://www.japanaradio.com/ and http://www.aussiewebradio.net/ ( http://www.cruizeradio.net/aussie/modules.php?name=Top ) ... but there must be a thousand International I'Net radios better than our US domestic drek ... Virgin.uk is even better than our local stuff ...

FYI: Irish airlines now offer flights from San Francisco to Ireland for US$400 each / round trip ... Wife and I are planning an Irish pub crawl for the music ... Anyone know where Van Morrison & U2 hang? ;)

" ... I'd be interested in any links to 'audiophile' internet radio stations. ..."

Check out the iTunes listings for radios, each has the bandwidth listed = some as high as 192k. But it is up to your DAC to get it converted ...
 
All these toslink to optical, long USB, long firewire cable doodads are nice, and help get the noisy PC out of the listening room, but you don't get a display, or a remote control, and they are good for one room audio only. They will cost you about the same as an SB3 but deliver 1/10th the functionality.

A wireless SB3 works anywhere within range of your existing wireless router. You can put one in every room in your house and listen to either the same or different music on any/all of them. There are no cables. It comes with an IR remote that works with the well-thought-out menu system that the SB3 uses. You can use a wi-fi enabled PDA or PC (touchscreen tablet such as Nokia N800) as a remote control for the system anywhere in range of the router.

The server is open source and there is a large community of developers adding new features to it daily. You can run it under windoze (ugh!), Mac OS, or linux.

For $250 it is very, very hard to beat the SB3.

Yes, I know, having a wi-fi transmitter within 100m of your stereo system will mess up the sound... yah, sure, you betcha!

I_F
 
" ... the Roland UA-1EX ..." is a very good DAC.
" ... All these toslink to optical, long USB, long firewire cable doodads are nice, and help get the noisy PC out of the listening room, but you don't get a display, or a remote control ..." True ... but the remote and other features have their own cost / benifit considerations.
" ... a wi-fi transmitter within 100m of your stereo system will mess up the sound ..." True, and wireless (generally) does not pass the bandwidth for 24bit / 96k = lots of jitter and data frame losses and atrocious latency ... although wired EtherNet can with the proper equipment (ala SqueezeBox, etc.)

IMOP the important feature of any of these scenarios is the ability to output 24bit / 96k bandwidth. :cool: ... whether anyone needs the same 24bit / 96k input (audio capture for ripping, copying, mastering, etc.) is problematic. I need it and want it, so I stick to those gadgets that can do both, input and output at 24bit / 96K or better (like the FireWire connected ADC & DAC). ;) (I also prefer the Apple Mac, but that's another discussion.)

(Mercenary again: we do ship a lot of the USB optical isolating fiber interfaces (~US$190) and the FireWire optical isolating fiber interfaces (~US$800 excluding the fiber [!!]) to audio professionals.)
 
It may change in the future but there are very few sources for 24/96 audio.

With the whole world having lost its mind and buying into I-this' and I-thats it seems the trend is more toward convenience than quality. Oh well, it wouldn't be the first time quality was displaced by convenience- look what rap did to motown...

I_F
 
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