Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Digital Line Level DACs, Digital Crossovers, Equalizers, etc.

Best DAC-chip out there?
Best DAC-chip out there?
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 9th January 2018, 09:48 PM   #41
Joseph K is offline Joseph K  Hungary
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: gran sasso
Yes, true. Was talking more in general. SD..
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2018, 10:09 PM   #42
limono is online now limono  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Dac chip hardly matters and you didn't indicate if you want DSD (seems like everybody wants it now) If not and you want a nice analog stage with good discrete volume control and a remote, used Antelope Zodiac Gold can be bought for around $1000. It is a good, slick product , plays 384khz PCM through USB , enough in and outs , sounds good enough and unlike DIY, chinese DACs has some resale value too. It is a High End dac designed by people who are capable of coming up with original ideas and are not only
"copy and paste" electricians.
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2018, 10:49 PM   #43
analog_sa is offline analog_sa  Europe
diyAudio Member
 
analog_sa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Cascais
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph K View Post

Given that with only one sentence You have just eliminated 99% of the present audio market..

That isn't true. Yes, lots of delta-sigmas indeed, but none of the really great dacs i have had the pleasure to audition were delta-sigma. Which is still besides the point.

My claim is only that using real-time software conversion and a powerful PC sounds really bad to me. For a number of reasons i would imagine, but even those are unimportant as at the end sound quality is based on a subjective perception.

My experience with pc sources has led me to believe that a low-power consumption processor, powered from a clean linear supply with as many linear regulators as the MB design will allow for is the route to better pc sound. Even better if there are separate server and NAA device of extremely low power.

Of course such a setup is not suitable for real time conversion, so the only time when i did such comparisons in my own system was with a real power house PC and a T+A DAC 8. Perhaps this particular dac is not the best test device as the pcm part is just average, while the dsd part is really well designed. The hqplayer upconversion sounded perhaps less digital and more like a caricature of analogue. It was dramatically different to what native high rate dsd sounded in the same setup.

Unfortunately never tried off-line conversion and i wish i had.

My opinion only. Everyone is free to like whatever sound pleases them.
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2018, 11:16 PM   #44
phase is offline phase  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Iíve been enjoying my ak4495SEQ on a kit board, using an Xmos usb input, but am next going to try and ditch the pc altogether. My plan is to try an SD card player with a low noise power supply. This will be all inside a case, with a pre amp as well.
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2018, 11:50 PM   #45
Markw4 is offline Markw4  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: California
There are a lot of DACs to choose from out there. Most of them have little or no measured performance data. Most of them haven't been reviewed by Stereophile who seem to do fairly comprehensive evaluations: Recommended Components: 2017 Edition Digital Processors | Stereophile.com
What are you going to do?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th January 2018, 04:26 AM   #46
MarcelvdG is offline MarcelvdG  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Haarlem, the Netherlands
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph K View Post
Yes, true. Was talking more in general. SD..
That's not necessarily a good comparison, because single-bit sigma-delta modulators have their specific technical advantage and disadvantages compared to multi-bit sigma-delta modulators/noise shapers. The advantage is that there are no matching requirements, the disadvantages that you can't dither them properly (*), which can lead to idle tone issues, the huge amount of out-of-band noise that needs to be filtered off and for continuous-time implementations without FIRDAC that they need a very good clock because of their jitter sensitivity.

If someone dislikes their disadvantages enough, expectation bias can easily lead to a poor subjective performance - or maybe some can even really hear a difference, who knows?

(*) You can dither them to some extent, but you can't dither them according to nonsubtractive dither theory.

Last edited by MarcelvdG; 10th January 2018 at 04:45 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th January 2018, 05:45 AM   #47
xx3stksm is offline xx3stksm  Japan
diyAudio Member
 
xx3stksm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Hokkaido(north area)
Many DSM DACs uses a multi-bit architecture like 6bit. But in fact, they usually don't operate or can't in 6bit resolution. The first pic is at -1dBFS where the DAC can utilize the maximum resolution. You can count 27 levels because this is a 5bit resolution DAC. The second is at -32dBFS where the DAC can only use three values,+1LSB, zero and -1LSB. I love to listen to classical music which has pianissimo probably less than -40DBFS. It means my DSM DAC with 5bit resolution averagely operates in two or three resolution for classical music. Every DSM DACs must use three levels operation in small amplitude. I'm sure this is interesting and true but not well known.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg tek00226.jpg (88.3 KB, 485 views)
File Type: jpg tek00225.jpg (94.2 KB, 477 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th January 2018, 02:43 AM   #48
miro1360 is offline miro1360  Europe
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
NOS AD1862, PCM1704
it matters very much how I/V is done
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2018, 06:45 AM   #49
gentlevoice is offline gentlevoice  Denmark
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Denmark
Best DAC-chip out there?
@xx3stksm ...

Quote:
Many DSM DACs uses a multi-bit architecture like 6bit. But in fact, they usually don't operate or can't in 6bit resolution. The first pic is at -1dBFS where the DAC can utilize the maximum resolution. You can count 27 levels because this is a 5bit resolution DAC. The second is at -32dBFS where the DAC can only use three values,+1LSB, zero and -1LSB. I love to listen to classical music which has pianissimo probably less than -40DBFS. It means my DSM DAC with 5bit resolution averagely operates in two or three resolution for classical music. Every DSM DACs must use three levels operation in small amplitude. I'm sure this is interesting and true but not well known.
Hmmm ... very interesting observation - thanks for sharing. It reminds me of some years ago I had a conversation with a person who had been one of the main designers of a very well regarded ES9018 based DAC. He said that the ES9018 IC itself "chipped" (sampled) at 1.536 MHz at a relatively low resolution (6 bits or 9 bits - I don't remember exactly) and retrospectively in his experience/assessment this seemed to lead to degrees of listening fatigue.

Also, to this end, I personally have a PCM1794 based DAC which (again to my memory) operates as a multi-bit up to 6 bits and then switches to a DS structure on the lesser bits. When looking at the oscilloscope output traces of the PCM1794 (it should be noted that it is a DDDAC variant, i.e. the ICs internal digital filters have been disabled) it often looks sort of "squared" - like a few major steps with "minor" steps added on the top ... I hope this makes sense ... ? It puzzled me when I saw it but I chose to assume that it was supposed to be combined with filtering and in this way it would ad up to the adequate curve-shapes. But maybe it doesn't?

Just thinking aloud here (and not being an expert on digital signal theory!): Maybe this could to some degree explain why pure DSD converters & PCM converters appear to be highly regarded for their musicality/purity ...

Anyone knows how the AK4497 samples?

Cheers,

Jesper
__________________
"... It is always possible to be friendly ..." HH the Dalai Lama.
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2018, 04:07 AM   #50
Bill poster is offline Bill poster  Thailand
diyAudio Member
 
Bill poster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Bangkok/London
Quote:
Originally Posted by phase View Post
Iíve been enjoying my ak4495SEQ on a kit board, using an Xmos usb input, but am next going to try and ditch the pc altogether. My plan is to try an SD card player with a low noise power supply. This will be all inside a case, with a pre amp as well.
curious to know which kit board u used- want to try an external dac w my Node 2
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Best DAC-chip out there?Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Chip amp PCB esprit Parts 4 7th September 2017 08:52 AM
FS: CS4397-KS 24-Bit D/A Converter chip + CS8416 192kHz Digital Audio Receiver chip acccruz Swap Meet 0 16th December 2014 08:18 PM
Is there a Class-D amplifier chip that does it's own D/A on chip? gripracer Class D 10 23rd February 2011 05:52 PM
need help with this chip Irwind Kee Chip Amps 6 29th August 2010 04:21 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 03:25 AM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 14.29%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2018 diyAudio
Wiki