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DAC blind test: NO audible difference whatsoever.
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Old 13th November 2017, 04:01 AM   #21
planet10 is online now planet10  Canada
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DAC blind test: NO audible difference whatsoever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonBocani View Post
You need to avoid the ''placebo effect'' in order to prove the efficiency of a drug.

The placebo effect is proven to be effective (same as the hifi boutique salesperson's speech) so the way to deal with that: they split the test in two groups: one that will take the real drug and the other one with some sugar pill that doesn't make any effect (besides placebo).

At the end, most of the time the two groups will have positive effects and the real drug must prove itself more efficient than the sugar pill (placebo) by a certain margin.
That is not an ABX test.

I donít have issues with blind tests, just when the results are not interpreted correctly. An ABX test cannot be used to determine that 2 DUTs show no difference.

dave
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Old 13th November 2017, 04:02 AM   #22
abraxalito is offline abraxalito  United Kingdom
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Even though the truth hurts,
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Old 13th November 2017, 04:15 AM   #23
JonBocani is offline JonBocani  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planet10 View Post
That is not an ABX test.

I don’t have issues with blind tests, just when the results are not interpreted correctly. An ABX test cannot be used to determine that 2 DUTs show no difference.

dave

At the essence, the whole idea is to be able to differentiate something from something else (A from B).

Couldn't be simplier than that: Two things.

''Are you able to identify A from B ?''

There is no interpretation possible, it's a clear cut case of YES or NO. That's the beauty of it.

Then, the logic that comes along with that is: If you CAN'T differentiate A from B, how can you possibly prefer one over another?

That's the spirit.
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Old 13th November 2017, 04:16 AM   #24
planet10 is online now planet10  Canada
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The test is not sufficiently strong to show that 2 DUt are the same. This is because of the forced choice. The test does not enable you to make the conclusion you are.

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Old 13th November 2017, 04:22 AM   #25
jameshillj is offline jameshillj  Australia
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I wish I could enjoy my music on cheap gear - I have never understood the concept of comparing one product to another to see which one was 'best' - 'Whose best? it's a bit of nonsense really as what gear I prefer to listen to, another person may dislike intensely

Plus - My 'best' dac (highest specced, that is) is the Ayre but I spend most of my time listening to the modded Line Magnetic and occasionally, a NOS 1541A - it's all about the (listening to) music for me

I've taken part in numerous ABX double-blind tests over the years and find them mostly inconclusive as nearly all are short-term tests, there's little time to concentrate or focus your listening and the written evaluations are completely open to interpretation - you end up listening to differences, not audio reproduction.
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Old 13th November 2017, 04:26 AM   #26
JonBocani is offline JonBocani  Canada
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And, yes Dave, you are right. Tests in pharmaceutical contexts are not ABX. They're not because it's impossible to work that way.

The participants (testees) have no way to test A, then B, then X, numerous times... for obvious reasons. Drugs cannot be tested the same as audio components. It's not a matter of A/B within seconds or minutes, but over days/weeks with a lot of biases.

So the way they do it is similar as the ABX, in the essence, but rather with A group and B group. The placebo group become the base reference. Then, an equivalent positive differenciation would be something like +5% or whatever pourcentage they consider valid, for the non-placebo group.


ABX valid differenciation is usually considered 17/20 or better.
Pharma tests valid differenciation is probably north of 5% over placebo group. I don't know... Interesting, though.

here is a start:

Placebo-controlled study - Wikipedia
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Old 13th November 2017, 04:29 AM   #27
JonBocani is offline JonBocani  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planet10 View Post
The test is not sufficiently strong to show that 2 DUt are the same.

dave

Please tell me more about that.
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Old 13th November 2017, 04:30 AM   #28
planet10 is online now planet10  Canada
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None of that matters. ABX is statistically unable to determine whether 2 devices are the same, only if they ar edifferent.

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Old 13th November 2017, 04:37 AM   #29
planet10 is online now planet10  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonBocani View Post
Please tell me more about that.
Read the entire Wikpedia article you cited.

But here the 1st paragraph (italics mine):

Quote:
An ABX test is a method of comparing two choices of sensory stimuli to identify detectable differences between them. A subject is presented with two known samples (sample A, the first reference, and sample B, the second reference) followed by one unknown sample X that is randomly selected from either A or B. The subject is then required to identify X as either A or B. If X cannot be identified reliably with a low p-value in a predetermined number of trials, then the null hypothesis cannot be rejected and it cannot be proven that there is a perceptible difference between A and B.
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Old 13th November 2017, 04:44 AM   #30
JonBocani is offline JonBocani  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jameshillj View Post
find them mostly inconclusive as nearly all are short-term tests, there's little time to concentrate or focus your listening and the written evaluations are completely open to interpretation - you end up listening to differences, not audio reproduction.

I heard that a lot, but i found that -on the contrary- the longer it is, the less your brain can potentially spot a difference.

Best music excerpt time would probably be somewhere between 5sec and 25sec.

Audio memory is very very short.

The thing to remember is NOT all blind test falls in the ''everybody fails'' pit. There is always a threshold. And these threshold proves that ABX test is a valid method. At the very least, it proves that some things show bigger differences than other, who falls in the more...subtle. If any.

I remember the first serious blind test i organized back in 2010... MP3 v.s. AAC v.s. CD v.s. HD 24/96.

I had to lower the quality til 64kpbs (!) MP3 files, to find the threshold where MOST people (not all!) could spot it. That was a shock. I was able to do it, so was my audiophiles buddies... But few participants were not. To my big surprise.

As ''low'' as 192kbps.... no one could spot any of the files. So the threshold was somewhere between 96 and 128kbps. MP3 only, AAC was impossible to spot either.

And i'm not even talking about the 24/96 v.s. HD or the AAC 256kbps... No one was even close. MP3's were challenging enough.

So, YES, thresholds are the key here. ABX shouldnt be discarded because a threshold is not yet found.

I'm pretty sure if you ABX a Pepsi and a glass of Vodka, you'll find it.
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