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DAC blind test: NO audible difference whatsoever
DAC blind test: NO audible difference whatsoever
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Old 11th February 2018, 02:24 PM   #1571
Markw4 is offline Markw4  United States
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Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
It is interesting to note all the reasons put forward as to why we should ignore any result which shows that two devices are not distinguishable:

Curious then that a test finding of 'distinguishable' is accepted almost without comment, even when the electrical difference combined with psychoacoustics means that the DUT ought (probably) to be indistinguishable.
The point was that an experiment needs to be designed to answer a particular question. If well designed for that purpose, it should not be presumed to work equally well to answer a different question.

Regarding psychoacoustics, Earl Geddes said the findings apply to somewhere around 95% of the population. They were never intended to serve as hard limits for the entire human population, and especially not in the presence of training and practice.

Last edited by Markw4; 11th February 2018 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 11th February 2018, 02:31 PM   #1572
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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That makes me think ignorance is bliss, and if training and practice would mean I lose my psychoacoustic abilities I'd be better off in the dark?
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Old 11th February 2018, 03:11 PM   #1573
Markw4 is offline Markw4  United States
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Originally Posted by scottjoplin View Post
That makes me think ignorance is bliss, and if training and practice would mean I lose my psychoacoustic abilities I'd be better off in the dark?
The idea was that there is probably room to improve abilities. If you want to. As I have mentioned before, it can make you more picky.
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Old 13th February 2018, 10:22 AM   #1574
Turbowatch2 is offline Turbowatch2  Germany
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The ability to hear differences largely depends on the personal expectations of the listener. On YouTube there are ridiculous clips about people listening to mains wires from NO. Not changing from a thin cheapo cable to a good one, no the audience can hear the huge improvement NO wire Mk2 shows over NO wire Mk1!
I do my personal listening tests in private, sometimes I am in the mode to listen carefully, sometimes I cant concentrate. An official listening test sure would be interesting for me, but the whole new situation probably distract me from the audible differences, if there are any.
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Old 13th February 2018, 10:24 AM   #1575
Turbowatch2 is offline Turbowatch2  Germany
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It is a little bit sad, nobody here really cared about the DAC it started with. actually itīs about 156 pages OT...
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Old 13th February 2018, 11:49 AM   #1576
Markw4 is offline Markw4  United States
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Originally Posted by Turbowatch2 View Post
It is a little bit sad, nobody here really cared about the DAC it started with. actually itīs about 156 pages OT...
What do you mean by, "...the DAC it started with...?"

Actually, the thread started with a story about some people who couldn't hear a difference between a few DACs, not one DAC. The story was okay by itself, but a claim was made by the teller of the story that nobody could possibly ever hear a difference between any modern DACs. While that may have been true in the teller's personal experience, it is not true in general.
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Old 13th February 2018, 05:14 PM   #1577
Turbowatch2 is offline Turbowatch2  Germany
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OK, you tell that to someone who, right now, owns 3 different separate DAC's
So maybe my ears are not all crazy.

But I might have expected a little more interest for the technical side, instead of endless "who can / cant hear what" handbaging.
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Old 13th February 2018, 06:23 PM   #1578
Markw4 is offline Markw4  United States
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As long as some people insist technical specs don't matter at all because all moderns DACs have inaudible distortion, it can never get to the point of tech being relevant for discussion. That belief of inaudibility, by the way, was largely based on 4 or 5 guys, who couldn't tell any DACs apart by ear, representing hearing ability of the entire population of the earth. An attempt was made to back it up with some old published research using fairly small numbers of untrained and unpracticed test subject. The author of some of that research, Earl Geddes, said it only applied to about 95% of the population anyway. There has never been any research conducted on the other 5%, or people such as highly trained and experienced mastering engineers. Why? Nobody cares to pay for it. It's hard to do, complicated, and expensive.

To further complicate matters, there are some issues with how ABX testing is often conducted, but there is not published research to prove it. At the most, there are some unquantified comments and impressions from researchers as to what tends to work better when testing for small differences.

Combine all of the above with firmly established beliefs on both sides, and you have a recipe for lots of forum activity.

Last edited by Markw4; 13th February 2018 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 14th February 2018, 05:17 AM   #1579
Turbowatch2 is offline Turbowatch2  Germany
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This ABX tests IMO are highly undemocratic. If 99 persons can not find any difference between test objects, but only one is able to spot it with a high percentage of hits, 99 opinions are irrelevant.
Now one could discuss an allowable error margin, like, maybe, 10%.

In the end you got to except that 99% are wrong, which might be a problem...

Please don't see Hifi like politics, where a fraction of a percent can mean the decision between a boring and a mad candidate.
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Old 14th February 2018, 05:36 AM   #1580
Markw4 is offline Markw4  United States
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Originally Posted by Turbowatch2 View Post
99 opinions are irrelevant.
Not necessarily. In most aural research the questions being asked are about the abilities or preferences of most people, not about a small group of only a few people. In such cases, averages are more important than best ever scores.


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Please don't see Hifi like politics, where a fraction of a percent can mean the decision between a boring and a mad candidate.
It isn't that HiFi is like politics, it's that human brains are like human brains. When humans have already arrived at firm beliefs, it can be virtually impossible in many cases to get them to change their minds. Sometimes tribal effects are involved, some people simply seem to have more of a need for certainty in the world around them than others do, there is always psychological Naive Reality to contend with, etc.

Naive realism (psychology - Wikipedia)

Last edited by Markw4; 14th February 2018 at 05:41 AM.
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