Hi Lorien,
Another guy here was asking if you would have any more of the same Blue Wave boards that I put into my Line Magnetic lm-502 dac - he wants to use the usb input via the BW board instead of the spdif source - there are quite a few of these LM dacs here in Australia and they respond really well to simple upgrades well beyond expectations.
Another guy here was asking if you would have any more of the same Blue Wave boards that I put into my Line Magnetic lm-502 dac - he wants to use the usb input via the BW board instead of the spdif source - there are quite a few of these LM dacs here in Australia and they respond really well to simple upgrades well beyond expectations.
Thank you all for support - it really means a lot to me! I'll continue debugging this issue and let you know if I'll find something!
@ James: since we are now sure about the compatibility between BW and your DAC then I can build up a couple of BW to those who wish to make some HW upgrades. In any case, giving the actual circumstances, I will NOT take the money and vanish / ignoring customers (like many other manufacturers are doing) but offer full refund in case there's any incompatibility problems with any of my BW! My request is to keep the board close to initial state when running first compatibility tests.
If this condition can be kept then please tell to anyone interested that he/she can order the BW.
Kind regards,
L
@ James: since we are now sure about the compatibility between BW and your DAC then I can build up a couple of BW to those who wish to make some HW upgrades. In any case, giving the actual circumstances, I will NOT take the money and vanish / ignoring customers (like many other manufacturers are doing) but offer full refund in case there's any incompatibility problems with any of my BW! My request is to keep the board close to initial state when running first compatibility tests.
If this condition can be kept then please tell to anyone interested that he/she can order the BW.
Kind regards,
L
After some time digging for the source of the clicking issue I found something interesting which some of you may already know: not all the BluWave boards are affected by this clicking issue and not all are acting weirdly into Linux OS. 
Given the fact that schematic and layout aren't changed from one board to another in the same PCB batch, I'm blaming for some of the parts or the PCB itself.
Christoph (taggard2) said it might be something related to the temperatures => it might throttle but is not that since I put a better heatsink over those Vregs and even wire a BluWave test board to all the PSUs of WaveIO (which is considered to be a stable design). It's true that I ended up with a wiring mess there but BluWave worked okay in Windows (with the expected clicks, of course). So, nothing different!
In the end, I'm strongly assuming that there is something related to the PCB itself. It may be possible that the chinese PCB manufacturer didn't taken my layer stack into account properly (despite their 'strong' confirmation) so all the traces for the USB data path which should have 90R impedance in fact are of a different value. - sadly I have no means to measure them!
Perhaps for USB LS / FS doesn't matter too much but, as Ross said previously to me, the problem lies in USB communication or close to it. AND, since I wanted to be on a tight budget with this board, I didn't opt out for impedance control on BluWave's PCBs... not that it does matter too much for some chinese PCB manufacturers anyway!
Because of all above and to move on in searching for the source of this issue I would need (a free) USB trace software that's capable to run on Ubuntu (16.04 or so) + access to some advanced oscilloscope to make an eye diagram on the USB data tracks of this board. Who knows, maybe the signal is not stable and wide/open as expected!
Perhaps there's any of you willing to help me on this matter (to compensate for my lack of knowledge in Ubuntu for USB trace sw) or give me access / test one of my boards for me for USB eye diagram... that's definitely something that I'll not forget!
Thank you,
L
Given the fact that schematic and layout aren't changed from one board to another in the same PCB batch, I'm blaming for some of the parts or the PCB itself.
Christoph (taggard2) said it might be something related to the temperatures => it might throttle but is not that since I put a better heatsink over those Vregs and even wire a BluWave test board to all the PSUs of WaveIO (which is considered to be a stable design). It's true that I ended up with a wiring mess there but BluWave worked okay in Windows (with the expected clicks, of course). So, nothing different!
In the end, I'm strongly assuming that there is something related to the PCB itself. It may be possible that the chinese PCB manufacturer didn't taken my layer stack into account properly (despite their 'strong' confirmation) so all the traces for the USB data path which should have 90R impedance in fact are of a different value. - sadly I have no means to measure them!
Perhaps for USB LS / FS doesn't matter too much but, as Ross said previously to me, the problem lies in USB communication or close to it. AND, since I wanted to be on a tight budget with this board, I didn't opt out for impedance control on BluWave's PCBs... not that it does matter too much for some chinese PCB manufacturers anyway!
Because of all above and to move on in searching for the source of this issue I would need (a free) USB trace software that's capable to run on Ubuntu (16.04 or so) + access to some advanced oscilloscope to make an eye diagram on the USB data tracks of this board. Who knows, maybe the signal is not stable and wide/open as expected!
Perhaps there's any of you willing to help me on this matter (to compensate for my lack of knowledge in Ubuntu for USB trace sw) or give me access / test one of my boards for me for USB eye diagram... that's definitely something that I'll not forget!
Thank you,
L
After some time digging for the source of the clicking issue I found something interesting which some of you may already know: not all the BluWave boards are affected by this clicking issue and not all are acting weirdly into Linux OS.
Given the fact that schematic and layout aren't changed from one board to another in the same PCB batch, I'm blaming for some of the parts or the PCB itself.
Christoph (taggard2) said it might be something related to the temperatures => it might throttle but is not that since I put a better heatsink over those Vregs and even wire a BluWave test board to all the PSUs of WaveIO (which is considered to be a stable design). It's true that I ended up with a wiring mess there but BluWave worked okay in Windows (with the expected clicks, of course). So, nothing different!
In the end, I'm strongly assuming that there is something related to the PCB itself. It may be possible that the chinese PCB manufacturer didn't taken my layer stack into account properly (despite their 'strong' confirmation) so all the traces for the USB data path which should have 90R impedance in fact are of a different value. - sadly I have no means to measure them!
Perhaps for USB LS / FS doesn't matter too much but, as Ross said previously to me, the problem lies in USB communication or close to it. AND, since I wanted to be on a tight budget with this board, I didn't opt out for impedance control on BluWave's PCBs... not that it does matter too much for some chinese PCB manufacturers anyway!
Because of all above and to move on in searching for the source of this issue I would need (a free) USB trace software that's capable to run on Ubuntu (16.04 or so) + access to some advanced oscilloscope to make an eye diagram on the USB data tracks of this board. Who knows, maybe the signal is not stable and wide/open as expected!
Perhaps there's any of you willing to help me on this matter (to compensate for my lack of knowledge in Ubuntu for USB trace sw) or give me access / test one of my boards for me for USB eye diagram... that's definitely something that I'll not forget!
Thank you,
L
Hi Lorien thank you for your results so far, please see this link for free usb analyser:
Free USB Protocol Analyzer Features
But how how is the hardware/firmware for usb communication made for WaveIO board can you see any difference besides the maybe bad track layout?
Have you any Bluewave boards that works perfectly?
Thx again
Hello Kim,
thank you for help! Sadly, as far as I could see, the software you linked me to is for Windows OS only so no use on Ubuntu. Perhaps I should try to use a virtual machine on Ubuntu and install Windows on it. I wonder how complicate things might get... Anyway, I would not go to this path because, as complex it might become, as higher are the chances to mess up things.
As for WaveIO vs BluWave differences, all major ones that I thought it might influence the BW functionality were also tested on WaveIO. For example, I wired the isolated/SPDIF output side of BW to WaveIO through the isolator while disabling the on-board oscillators on WaveIO.=> WaveIO worked... so my initial assumption that clicking noise is coming from the jittery nature of the low cost isolator is not true. Perhaps this is the reason why some BW boards didn't worked even with the new isolator was mounted in place!
As for the rest, the single differences are on the input/USB side. The traces on BW are length-matched and were theoretically made to have 90 R impedances. I say "theoretically" because on reality, things may get confusing... hence my struggle to get access to a gear just to measure the eye diagram of those signals.
Kind regards,
L
thank you for help! Sadly, as far as I could see, the software you linked me to is for Windows OS only so no use on Ubuntu. Perhaps I should try to use a virtual machine on Ubuntu and install Windows on it. I wonder how complicate things might get...
Anyway, I would not go to this path because, as complex it might become, as higher are the chances to mess up things. As for WaveIO vs BluWave differences, all major ones that I thought it might influence the BW functionality were also tested on WaveIO. For example, I wired the isolated/SPDIF output side of BW to WaveIO through the isolator while disabling the on-board oscillators on WaveIO.=> WaveIO worked... so my initial assumption that clicking noise is coming from the jittery nature of the low cost isolator is not true. Perhaps this is the reason why some BW boards didn't worked even with the new isolator was mounted in place!
As for the rest, the single differences are on the input/USB side. The traces on BW are length-matched and were theoretically made to have 90 R impedances. I say "theoretically" because on reality, things may get confusing... hence my struggle to get access to a gear just to measure the eye diagram of those signals.
Kind regards,
L
Hello Kim,
thank you for help! Sadly, as far as I could see, the software you linked me to is for Windows OS only so no use on Ubuntu. Perhaps I should try to use a virtual machine on Ubuntu and install Windows on it. I wonder how complicate things might get...
As for WaveIO vs BluWave differences, all major ones that I thought it might influence the BW functionality were also tested on WaveIO. For example, I wired the isolated/SPDIF output side of BW to WaveIO through the isolator while disabling the on-board oscillators on WaveIO.=> WaveIO worked... so my initial assumption that clicking noise is coming from the jittery nature of the low cost isolator is not true. Perhaps this is the reason why some BW boards didn't worked even with the new isolator was mounted in place!
As for the rest, the single differences are on the input/USB side. The traces on BW are length-matched and were theoretically made to have 90 R impedances. I say "theoretically" because on reality, things may get confusing... hence my struggle to get access to a gear just to measure the eye diagram of those signals.
Kind regards,
L
It could be nice and risk free with a virtual test system and maybe if you see the error in windows system it will also be solved on Ubuntu😀😀
I think what you are doing are interesting and maybe learning some technical stuff too
All the best
Moving on a little bit I want to say that in the past days I simply got the heart out of this BW board. I'm really serious when I say this BluWave board is more like a "miniature devil" than "beauty" - no offense Tom !
Seriously now: I managed to isolate the source of the clicking noise on BW boards. At least I think I did.... A couple of hours ago I was heavily unpleasant surprised when I replaced the ULPI chip on BW with a brand new one and suddenly I start hearing a lot of clicks in Windows 10 - things that I never heard before! At least, not like this!
Moreover, Russ from XMOS confirmed that ULPI chips from SMSC (now Microchip) does have problems, one is confirmed by this XMOS design advisory.
But one may ask how WaveIO is working? It does have the same ULPI chip and (almost the) same USB input configuration/schematic. Well, not quite!
On WaveIO there's a USB multiplexer chip in front of ULPI interface which - I guess - can keep the USB signals at a certain levels which are not messing up with ULPI itself (at least not so badly)! I guess because I need a gear to see the eye diagram on those USB signals.
In a few hours I'll try to wire such an USB multiplexer on BW's PCB, in front of the ULPI chip. I have no idea if my soldering skills will help me on this task and, if so, the results will be as expected (no clicks on Windows and clear playback in Ubuntu). Either way I'll let you know!
Meanwhile, if there are some of you who own a BW and do have a USB isolator / cleaner / reclocker product, please put it in front of BW and see how it's behaving. In case there's one such a product already in front of BW, please remove it for 2-3 tracks and try to hear clicks and/or weird noise/sounds.
So far I'm more and more convinced that USB tracks on my PCB or ULPI or both are at the base of this weird behavior of BW.
Kind regards,
L
- no offense Tom ! Seriously now: I managed to isolate the source of the clicking noise on BW boards. At least I think I did.... A couple of hours ago I was heavily unpleasant surprised when I replaced the ULPI chip on BW with a brand new one and suddenly I start hearing a lot of clicks in Windows 10 - things that I never heard before! At least, not like this!
Moreover, Russ from XMOS confirmed that ULPI chips from SMSC (now Microchip) does have problems, one is confirmed by this XMOS design advisory.
But one may ask how WaveIO is working? It does have the same ULPI chip and (almost the) same USB input configuration/schematic. Well, not quite!
On WaveIO there's a USB multiplexer chip in front of ULPI interface which - I guess - can keep the USB signals at a certain levels which are not messing up with ULPI itself (at least not so badly)! I guess because I need a gear to see the eye diagram on those USB signals.
In a few hours I'll try to wire such an USB multiplexer on BW's PCB, in front of the ULPI chip. I have no idea if my soldering skills will help me on this task and, if so, the results will be as expected (no clicks on Windows and clear playback in Ubuntu). Either way I'll let you know!
Meanwhile, if there are some of you who own a BW and do have a USB isolator / cleaner / reclocker product, please put it in front of BW and see how it's behaving. In case there's one such a product already in front of BW, please remove it for 2-3 tracks and try to hear clicks and/or weird noise/sounds.
So far I'm more and more convinced that USB tracks on my PCB or ULPI or both are at the base of this weird behavior of BW.
Kind regards,
L
Moving on a little bit I want to say that in the past days I simply got the heart out of this BW board. I'm really serious when I say this BluWave board is more like a "miniature devil" than "beauty"
Seriously now: I managed to isolate the source of the clicking noise on BW boards. At least I think I did.... A couple of hours ago I was heavily unpleasant surprised when I replaced the ULPI chip on BW with a brand new one and suddenly I start hearing a lot of clicks in Windows 10 - things that I never heard before! At least, not like this!
Moreover, Russ from XMOS confirmed that ULPI chips from SMSC (now Microchip) does have problems, one is confirmed by this XMOS design advisory.
But one may ask how WaveIO is working? It does have the same ULPI chip and (almost the) same USB input configuration/schematic. Well, not quite!
On WaveIO there's a USB multiplexer chip in front of ULPI interface which - I guess - can keep the USB signals at a certain levels which are not messing up with ULPI itself (at least not so badly)! I guess because I need a gear to see the eye diagram on those USB signals.
In a few hours I'll try to wire such an USB multiplexer on BW's PCB, in front of the ULPI chip. I have no idea if my soldering skills will help me on this task and, if so, the results will be as expected (no clicks on Windows and clear playback in Ubuntu). Either way I'll let you know!
Meanwhile, if there are some of you who own a BW and do have a USB isolator / cleaner / reclocker product, please put it in front of BW and see how it's behaving. In case there's one such a product already in front of BW, please remove it for 2-3 tracks and try to hear clicks and/or weird noise/sounds.
So far I'm more and more convinced that USB tracks on my PCB or ULPI or both are at the base of this weird behavior of BW.
Kind regards,
L
Hi Lorien
Well done to hone in on the source of the problem. I have a Linux source plus an ISO Regen in front of my BW and have not had any clicking issues. I’ll try with out the Regen next his weekend and let you know.
Cheers!
Hi Lorien
I tried my BW without ISO Regen before it as you requested, that is straight USB from my Linux source. Still no problems as before, no clicks or pops. In fact now that the ISO Regen is removed the sound is excellent and not changed, so the BW isolation is taking care of cleaning everything up and the ISO R does not seem to add anything.
Hello Patrick! Thank you very much for your time in running the tests!
When I'm referring to BW issue, the results are definitely not as I expected! In fact, I hoped that your BW board will make some clicks without the Regen product in front of it. Please don't get me wrong, I'm really happy that your board plays well and... stable, but I'm quite desperate in trying to find the source of that clicking problem for the vast majority of my BWs! Anyway, it seems that your BW is one of a kind
When I'm referring to BW issue, the results are definitely not as I expected!
In fact, I hoped that your BW board will make some clicks without the Regen product in front of it. Please don't get me wrong, I'm really happy that your board plays well and... stable, but I'm quite desperate in trying to find the source of that clicking problem for the vast majority of my BWs! Anyway, it seems that your BW is one of a kind I came across this 'clicking' for the first time here when operating the MPD arrangement supplying the music data from the jRiver - as the same MPD sometimes miscues the incoming signal, I just assume there's an incorrect setting in the SOtM sms-200 unit as I don't get anything like this when using the jRiver directly to the BW board
As I'm a computer novice, I'm waiting for a visit later on in the week from a computer expert to see what I've managed to change the settings and things - just curious really.
What I did find curious was the same music direct from an external HDD via Squeezelite sounds a bit different to the same song thru the MPD/DNLA program with the same song/music data from the laptop - pity the MPD seems to be so 'touchy' on the SOtM
As I'm a computer novice, I'm waiting for a visit later on in the week from a computer expert to see what I've managed to change the settings and things - just curious really.
What I did find curious was the same music direct from an external HDD via Squeezelite sounds a bit different to the same song thru the MPD/DNLA program with the same song/music data from the laptop - pity the MPD seems to be so 'touchy' on the SOtM
Hello Patrick! Thank you very much for your time in running the tests!
When I'm referring to BW issue, the results are definitely not as I expected!
Hi Lucian [emoji4]
Happy to help. I also did hope and expect the BW to click without the ISO Regen. I am now curious as to why mine has no issues and you are having so much trouble. This must be to do with how my server utilises Linux. Let me know if I can help you in any way as the BW is sounding superb in my system now.
If you have time could you let me know about the voltage input question that I mentioned in my email.
Cheers Patrick.
I ask for a little help from you guys: in the past days I made some experiments in chasing down the clicking nature of BW and I saw that placing a higher value caps on top of the some parts will simply remove any clicks in Windows OSes.
I have no idea if this change will work outside of my audio setup hence my request: is anyone willing to try this mod on his side?
I admit the parts are small so you'll need a steady hand and some background experience in soldering!
What you'll need is a MLCC 0805 (imperial) capacitor with a value of minimum 4.7uF, preferably a X5R or X7R type (Y5V should NOT be used!) and a voltage rating above 16Vdc. Obviously that electrolytics with short leads will work too but it's advisable to not cross the upper limit of 22uF in capacitance! At least this is what manufacturer says...
Attached is a picture showing you where this new cap should be mounted! You can solder it in parallel with any of C4 or C5 since those are wired in parallel.
Let me know if you'll need further infos,
L
I have no idea if this change will work outside of my audio setup hence my request: is anyone willing to try this mod on his side?
I admit the parts are small so you'll need a steady hand and some background experience in soldering!
What you'll need is a MLCC 0805 (imperial) capacitor with a value of minimum 4.7uF, preferably a X5R or X7R type (Y5V should NOT be used!) and a voltage rating above 16Vdc. Obviously that electrolytics with short leads will work too but it's advisable to not cross the upper limit of 22uF in capacitance! At least this is what manufacturer says...
Attached is a picture showing you where this new cap should be mounted! You can solder it in parallel with any of C4 or C5 since those are wired in parallel.
Let me know if you'll need further infos,
L
Attachments
After a lot of time chasing this clicking trouble I decided to stop producing this board in it's actual form. There are some of you asking me to Not give up on this project and I won't!
Instead I'll leave for ever the price constraint criteria since it seems that I'm not able to build cheap products! I apologies to all of you for all this clicking mess and I'll make sure it will tied by the past!
Speaking of the new, unconstrained BluWave, I may need your advice on how it should be. So far I decided to keep the power supply of XMOS part to USB bus but leave the external PSU option for the SPDIF output stage. The input voltage will be wider than it is on actual BW revision. Something like 5V to 12V or so.
I guess this will allow one to power up BW from batteries!
The output side will have RCA connector soldered on PCB. I'm still debating if adding a BNC one in parallel will do any benefit?
Looking forward to any useful replies
Kind regards,
L
Instead I'll leave for ever the price constraint criteria since it seems that I'm not able to build cheap products! I apologies to all of you for all this clicking mess and I'll make sure it will tied by the past!
Speaking of the new, unconstrained BluWave, I may need your advice on how it should be. So far I decided to keep the power supply of XMOS part to USB bus but leave the external PSU option for the SPDIF output stage. The input voltage will be wider than it is on actual BW revision. Something like 5V to 12V or so.
I guess this will allow one to power up BW from batteries!
The output side will have RCA connector soldered on PCB. I'm still debating if adding a BNC one in parallel will do any benefit?
Looking forward to any useful replies
Kind regards,
L
After a lot of time chasing this clicking trouble I decided to stop producing this board in it's actual form. There are some of you asking me to Not give up on this project and I won't!
Instead I'll leave for ever the price constraint criteria since it seems that I'm not able to build cheap products! I apologies to all of you for all this clicking mess and I'll make sure it will tied by the past!
Speaking of the new, unconstrained BluWave, I may need your advice on how it should be. So far I decided to keep the power supply of XMOS part to USB bus but leave the external PSU option for the SPDIF output stage. The input voltage will be wider than it is on actual BW revision. Something like 5V to 12V or so.
I guess this will allow one to power up BW from batteries!
The output side will have RCA connector soldered on PCB. I'm still debating if adding a BNC one in parallel will do any benefit?
Looking forward to any useful replies
Kind regards,
L
Hi Lucian,
I know you've put a massive amount of work into trying to sort this BW problem out so your conclusion to stop producing this board makes a lot of sense. I think you've learnt a great deal from this experience and that will be valuable in designing the next board - BW2 maybe. From the start with BW it was clear to me it was a starting point and you've decided you need to go down a different track - it's simply an evolution of the original. At this stage I think your experience with BW is what counts and I like your suggestions for the new board. If you do decide to put on a soldered RCA connector, would it be possible to place it on the same side of the board as the USB connector? It makes it easier to fit the board into a casing.
Looking forward to your new design.
Bob
Hi Lorien have you received inputs from people testing with a capacitor?
Is 4.7uf 16v the optimal value?
Thx
Hi Lucian ,
(yes i fix my board , a simple solder joint !! )
I never had have any kind of click ever ,and i have an very standard setup ,modern laptop with win 8 and 7 , spdif side is Lipo battery powered .
dont you think , those "clicks" , or whatever they are , are from the setup of their own users ??
your board works great , and it's well designed
.
(yes i fix my board , a simple solder joint !! )
I never had have any kind of click ever ,and i have an very standard setup ,modern laptop with win 8 and 7 , spdif side is Lipo battery powered .
dont you think , those "clicks" , or whatever they are , are from the setup of their own users ??
your board works great , and it's well designed
.
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