Is jitter an issue with usb signals ?

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DF96

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Joined 2007
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GDO said:
Sorry to be a bit acid, but am really very tired of the classic audiophile "not-good-enough-for-my-gold-plated-ears" argument regarding digital stuff, and basically this is what the sync/async debate is all about.
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That is certainly not my understanding of the debate. My understanding is that USB was originally never intended to do anything other than transfer data. However, a standard was later issued by which it can transfer audio data with some degree of timing accuracy, but this is inadequate for critical purposes. As it is usable for audio, people use it but then talk nonsense about cables etc. (as in all facets of audio!). Meanwhile, for serious audio people just transfer data via USB and then everything is fine.

Could someone who really knows pop up and enlighten us all?
 
GDO

GDO

Member
Joined 2009
DF96 said:
I don't know; there were too many TLAs, but it appears to be something which sends audio data to a computer via USB. If so, completely irrelevant to this discussion - which I believe is about audio data coming out from a PC.
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Yes, you are what i feared you were: an audiophile! :D

Data that come out from a pc are data that also have to come into a pc, that's what recording is all about these days, and both things must be done in a synced way, asynch being an unacceptable form of anarchy in a studio...

Usb soundcard made recordings suck: always require the PCI label!:D
 
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DF96

R.I.P.
Joined 2007
myweb.tiscali.co.uk/g8hqp/
GDO said:
Yes, you are what i feared you were: an audiophile!
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Well, before I admit to that I would need to know what you mean by "audiophile" and whether you use that word as a meaningful label or merely an insult.

Data that come out from a pc are data that also have to come into a pc, that's what recording is all about these days, and both things must be done in a synced way, asynch being an unacceptable form of anarchy in a studio.
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Once again I must thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.

You understand, of course, that a PC deals in data and data alone so any timing information associated with the audio must be stored as data too (or, to be pedantic, perhaps it should be called metadata). I still don't see the relevance, unless you imply that a PC running a non real-time system such a Windows (or Linux) can accurately timestamp data entering via USB - not just data packets but individual data samples. Studio operations must of course be synced together, but a PC is the last thing I would consider for doing anything other than storing data in the correct order. I speak as someone who spent a career working on real-time systems using real computers; PCs were regarded as some sort of a joke.
 
GDO

GDO

Member
Joined 2009
DF96 said:
I still don't see the relevance, unless you imply that a PC running a non real-time system such a Windows (or Linux) can accurately timestamp data entering via USB - not just data packets but individual data samples.
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Time stamped audiophilia, bit perfect Klan, packet loss Holy Inquisition... Sorry, you are too much!:D

I belong to the crap vinyl generation and never minded the ... about wow and flutter. Similar with jitter and whatever digital miseries...:D
 
C

cliffforrest

Member
Joined 2004
"Time stamped audiophilia, bit perfect Klan, packet loss Holy Inquisition... Sorry, you are too much!"

I am struggling to find anything meaningful in that sentence.

I belong to the crap vinyl generation and never minded the ... about wow and flutter. Similar with jitter and whatever digital miseries..."

So what contribution do you think you are making to a thread on digital and USB?
 
D

DF96

R.I.P.
Joined 2007
myweb.tiscali.co.uk/g8hqp/
GDO said:
Time stamped audiophilia, bit perfect Klan, packet loss Holy Inquisition... Sorry, you are too much!

I belong to the crap vinyl generation and never minded the ... about wow and flutter. Similar with jitter and whatever digital miseries...
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The helpful way in which you share with us your detailed knowledge of USB audio technology is an example to all.
 
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YashN

Member
Joined 2013
SY said:
USB is really problematic. When I try to print documents, the words get scrambled or typos suddenly appear.

For every audiophile neurosis, there's plenty of story-tellers delighted to feed it.
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A very common mistake by the uninformed: file transfer isn't the same USB mechanism by which asynch USB is used for audio...

In sync and for file transfers, there is CRC + re-send.

There is no resend in async USB for audio!

In other words, you are comparing apples to oranges.
 
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YashN

Member
Joined 2013
ginetto61 said:
I always look also at the professional sector.
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For some things, the pro sector is far ahead the audiophile ones: just look at how many people use passive crossovers rather than strive for bi-amping with active ones as an example.

In the pro sector where mixing and mastering is very important, we use active, bi-amped monitors for good reasons.
 
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YashN

Member
Joined 2013
GDO said:
Sorry to be a bit acid, but am really very tired of the classic audiophile "not-good-enough-for-my-gold-plated-ears" argument regarding digital stuff, and basically this is what the sync/async debate is all about.:mad:
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You haven't seen the real debate. :p

We're not even debating sync vs async anymore: we're debating why the async wasn't perfect the first time around and why we can still today eke out better SQ even with an async implementation.

This discussion is tame compared by what you can read on some forums. :D
 
TNT

TNT

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Joined 2003
Paid Member
YashN said:
Any normal USB cable, DF96. It seems you are ignorant about how USB cables transmit voltage levels with ramp up and ramp down times...
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This post just confirms how uninformed of the general subject you are. Voltage ramp up... cheeeshhhh... You are spreading irrelevant / false information - just so you know. DF96 know about 3x10e3 more about this than you - you are making a fool of yourself. GDO is right behind you apparently.

//
 
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YashN

Member
Joined 2013
DF96 said:
That is certainly not my understanding of the debate. My understanding is that USB was originally never intended to do anything other than transfer data. However, a standard was later issued by which it can transfer audio data with some degree of timing accuracy, but this is inadequate for critical purposes. As it is usable for audio, people use it but then talk nonsense about cables etc. (as in all facets of audio!). Meanwhile, for serious audio people just transfer data via USB and then everything is fine.
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Not inadequate, just not perfect as it was thought it was already once async was implemented.
 
Y

YashN

Member
Joined 2013
TNT said:
This post just confirms how uninformed of the general subject you are. Voltage ramp up... cheeeshhhh... You are spreading irrelevant / false information - just so you know.

DF96 know about 3x10e3 more about this than you - you are making a fool of yourself. GDO is right behind you apparently.
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OK, let's see YOU explain what travels in a USB cable since you haven't learned about it and are probably just making erroneous assumptions.

DF96 already made some basic mistake, just as SY and that other troll who wrote 'condesending'...
 
TNT

TNT

Member
Joined 2003
Paid Member
YashN said:
OK, let's see YOU explain what travels in a USB cable since you haven't learned about it and are probably just making erroneous assumptions.

DF96 already made some basic mistake, just as SY and that other troll who wrote 'condesending'...
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Sorry, I don't consider you to have the basic knowledge to discuss timing architecture in digital audio systems.

SY and DF are only pulling your legs.... cant you see that? No... probably not....


But I pass this: You are lost in a forest and the only thing in your possession is a compass but you keep wondering why there seem to be some water in it and spend time on how to get it out... this is you in digital timing land.

//
 
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