(this post is about choosing between digital line and PC based approaches so I had to choose one or the other forums, apologies if you don't think it fits properly)
I need 'effectively' a pair of 3-way active crossovers plus linkwitz transforms, to run a pair of 3-way stereo speakers. The transforms are needed because the bass drivers are purposely in undersized sealed enclosures. (My sources include analogue line but are mainly computer based, and are mainly audio but with occasional video/film). There are different ways of doing this, so I've asked a few questions around the subject and narrowed it down to my two favourites:
1.) A pair of 2x4 miniDSPs. Purpose made for this kind of thing and would be very straight forward wrt usability - in combo with my existing stereo DAC they could allow almost any source via physical connectors or a selector knob and pretty much just do what they say on the tin. However, it seems like a fairly messy signal path for my main software-based source - there'd be first a usb DAC and then also the mini DSP's internal A/D and D/A processing. I'm a little concerned about the effect on sound quality and also latency on those rare occasions when I play video with the sound.
2.) A netbook/laptop plus decent USB surround sound card (like the asus xonar u7) would be a shorter/simpler path for native software playback (employing just one D/A step). It should be possible to set up XO and EQ in my existing playback software (JRiver), and theres the potential for linux alternatives (if I ever get to grips with them) and other wizziness in the future. But IMO it can be a faff dealing with different sources and line inputs on a computer, and theres always the chance of sounds not coming through the playback software (which would therefore bypass the Xover etc.).
So, I'd like the miniDSPs but suspect the laptop/soundcard approach may be inherently more suitable (given that software is my main source). And hence I'm dithering yet again. What do people think - am I worrying too much about the signal path etc?
Many Thanks
Kev
I need 'effectively' a pair of 3-way active crossovers plus linkwitz transforms, to run a pair of 3-way stereo speakers. The transforms are needed because the bass drivers are purposely in undersized sealed enclosures. (My sources include analogue line but are mainly computer based, and are mainly audio but with occasional video/film). There are different ways of doing this, so I've asked a few questions around the subject and narrowed it down to my two favourites:
1.) A pair of 2x4 miniDSPs. Purpose made for this kind of thing and would be very straight forward wrt usability - in combo with my existing stereo DAC they could allow almost any source via physical connectors or a selector knob and pretty much just do what they say on the tin. However, it seems like a fairly messy signal path for my main software-based source - there'd be first a usb DAC and then also the mini DSP's internal A/D and D/A processing. I'm a little concerned about the effect on sound quality and also latency on those rare occasions when I play video with the sound.
2.) A netbook/laptop plus decent USB surround sound card (like the asus xonar u7) would be a shorter/simpler path for native software playback (employing just one D/A step). It should be possible to set up XO and EQ in my existing playback software (JRiver), and theres the potential for linux alternatives (if I ever get to grips with them) and other wizziness in the future. But IMO it can be a faff dealing with different sources and line inputs on a computer, and theres always the chance of sounds not coming through the playback software (which would therefore bypass the Xover etc.).
So, I'd like the miniDSPs but suspect the laptop/soundcard approach may be inherently more suitable (given that software is my main source). And hence I'm dithering yet again. What do people think - am I worrying too much about the signal path etc?
Many Thanks
Kev
Yeah, I'd looked at the minidigi but perhaps I'd dismissed it too quickly. IIRC it has neither USB nor analogue inputs so it didn't seem suitable for any of my sources.
BUT, yes it would let me replace the DAC from my main digital source with a simple USB/SPDIF (or tosslink) converter, which may be better. I see the minidigi also has two switch-selectable inputs so I could have the DAC connected to the second input for my analogue sources.
I also considered the nanodigi 2x8. I wasn't sure it gained much over the minidsps at the time, since it would need a decent quality 6 or 8 way DAC adding on the outputs. However, thinking again it could have advantages. As above, it would allow a usb/spdif converter on the input instead of unnecessary D/A stage. The need for outboard output DACs would make it more upgradable, and I could even have those DACs positioned at the active speakers, making the long signal runs digital.
Hmm, interesting, much food for thought. Thanks!
Kev
BUT, yes it would let me replace the DAC from my main digital source with a simple USB/SPDIF (or tosslink) converter, which may be better. I see the minidigi also has two switch-selectable inputs so I could have the DAC connected to the second input for my analogue sources.
I also considered the nanodigi 2x8. I wasn't sure it gained much over the minidsps at the time, since it would need a decent quality 6 or 8 way DAC adding on the outputs. However, thinking again it could have advantages. As above, it would allow a usb/spdif converter on the input instead of unnecessary D/A stage. The need for outboard output DACs would make it more upgradable, and I could even have those DACs positioned at the active speakers, making the long signal runs digital.
Hmm, interesting, much food for thought. Thanks!
Kev
Last edited:
You might have already seen it, but they also do an 8 ch I2S DAC now that should work with the nanodigi if you are ok with soldering. https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidspkits/minidac8
Hello
maybe this solution is intersting for you:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soft...eiver-over-display-port-hdmi.html#post4745539
Regards
Guenter
maybe this solution is intersting for you:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soft...eiver-over-display-port-hdmi.html#post4745539
Regards
Guenter
Another sound that is fairly cheap is ESI U46 XL
ESI - U46 XL
MiniDSP is straight forward, PC is versatile
I use MiniDSP 2x4 right now, but I would like to try linear phase, and that I can get for free using my PC and a good soundcard (not free).
What to recomment? - I don't know it depends if you are willing to use some days to learn the PC'way. MiniDSP is up and running in minutes.
ESI - U46 XL
MiniDSP is straight forward, PC is versatile
I use MiniDSP 2x4 right now, but I would like to try linear phase, and that I can get for free using my PC and a good soundcard (not free).
What to recomment? - I don't know it depends if you are willing to use some days to learn the PC'way. MiniDSP is up and running in minutes.
This thread is several months old now, but I forgot to report back. At the time I opted for option (2) in the OP - a computer and surround-sound card (an asus u7) to test the approach.
Initially Jriver was used for the crossover but (whilst excellent in sound quality) it was awkward swapping it to different sources, and the current version of windows is no longer properly compatible with it. So recently I gave up and moved to a software mixer called Voicemeeter Banana; this is less sophisticated wrt the crossover capabilities but 'much' better at handling different audio sources (and destinations) and plays well with windows 10.
Because there are a number of sources (software and hardware) I find voicemeeter much more suitable choice for this role. Its also more convenient to have the audio playing software be just another source, separate from handling output duties. If in the future Jriver and windows become harmonious, I may consider using it again 'purely' to make an output stage with more sophisticated DSP. But even then would continue to use voicemeeter to handle the sources (and foobar as the audio player). I've found this kind of flexibility is one clear benefit of the computer-based approach.
I can't compare with the mini-dsp as I didn't try that, but suspect there are pros and cons. Having all software controls live on one screen is certainly very convenient when it comes to setting up and tweaking, and its nice to have applications like youtube and online radio inherently part of the setup. But on the other hand the setup only works with the PC switched on, and the multi-purpose PC also had a tendency to get switched off, forgetting that it controlled the audio. When that happened, the tweeters got a big thump as the sound card powers down. So I ended up using a dedicated (if modest) audio laptop which is IMO the way to go, but it means there haven't been any huge savings in hardware costs.
Overall this setup has worked out very well indeed. The quality is surprisingly good too, so the sound card that was bought mostly just to test has become a semi-permanent solution. Very happy
Initially Jriver was used for the crossover but (whilst excellent in sound quality) it was awkward swapping it to different sources, and the current version of windows is no longer properly compatible with it. So recently I gave up and moved to a software mixer called Voicemeeter Banana; this is less sophisticated wrt the crossover capabilities but 'much' better at handling different audio sources (and destinations) and plays well with windows 10.
Because there are a number of sources (software and hardware) I find voicemeeter much more suitable choice for this role. Its also more convenient to have the audio playing software be just another source, separate from handling output duties. If in the future Jriver and windows become harmonious, I may consider using it again 'purely' to make an output stage with more sophisticated DSP. But even then would continue to use voicemeeter to handle the sources (and foobar as the audio player). I've found this kind of flexibility is one clear benefit of the computer-based approach.
I can't compare with the mini-dsp as I didn't try that, but suspect there are pros and cons. Having all software controls live on one screen is certainly very convenient when it comes to setting up and tweaking, and its nice to have applications like youtube and online radio inherently part of the setup. But on the other hand the setup only works with the PC switched on, and the multi-purpose PC also had a tendency to get switched off, forgetting that it controlled the audio. When that happened, the tweeters got a big thump as the sound card powers down. So I ended up using a dedicated (if modest) audio laptop which is IMO the way to go, but it means there haven't been any huge savings in hardware costs.
Overall this setup has worked out very well indeed. The quality is surprisingly good too, so the sound card that was bought mostly just to test has become a semi-permanent solution. Very happy
'Natural' is a very subjective thing, and I haven't much experience with android audio. But with respect to noise from computers, then yes - I found it to be extremely frustrating. Especially with high gain power amps, which amplify noise at a fixed level even when playing low volume music to them.
All internal sound cards (including reasonably costly asus ones) I've used can pick up noise from the computer. I could hear noise when the video/monitor changed picture, and from many other things - even just when the mouse moved. I tried different PSUs, video cards, motherboards etc - it was getting too expensive to track down. I will never go there again.
External sound cards are generally much less prone to picking up noise from the computer, which is why I will now only use external types. BUT if your computer is earthed/grounded (as even some laptops are, when plugged into their PSUs) you can still get ground-loop noise over USB or coax to peripheral amplifiers - a kind of background hum. I believe there are USB devices to de-couple this but I haven't tried them. (EDIT: this shouldn't happen with normal headphones, just devices that are separately grounded).
My preference for eliminating ground noise easily is either a non-grounded computer (or laptop, tablet etc) and external sound card connected via a digital electrical lead (e.g. usb or co-ax), or any computer and an external soundcard connected via an optical link.
All internal sound cards (including reasonably costly asus ones) I've used can pick up noise from the computer. I could hear noise when the video/monitor changed picture, and from many other things - even just when the mouse moved. I tried different PSUs, video cards, motherboards etc - it was getting too expensive to track down. I will never go there again.
External sound cards are generally much less prone to picking up noise from the computer, which is why I will now only use external types. BUT if your computer is earthed/grounded (as even some laptops are, when plugged into their PSUs) you can still get ground-loop noise over USB or coax to peripheral amplifiers - a kind of background hum. I believe there are USB devices to de-couple this but I haven't tried them. (EDIT: this shouldn't happen with normal headphones, just devices that are separately grounded).
My preference for eliminating ground noise easily is either a non-grounded computer (or laptop, tablet etc) and external sound card connected via a digital electrical lead (e.g. usb or co-ax), or any computer and an external soundcard connected via an optical link.
Last edited:
No, just consumer level types like the xonar range. After my disappointing experiences with those, which weren't especially cheap or nasty, I would not dare to spend any large sums on an internal card. Nor is it necessary just to get rid of the noise, when a very modest external card will do so - though I realise there can be other benefits to spending lots if you wanted to anyway.
To be clear, I'm not saying that internal cards can't work. However they can be really frustrating and costly to resolve if one is unlucky enough to get noise from the PC, as I and also (it appears) us1070 was. IMO external cards make elimination of this much easier.
To be clear, I'm not saying that internal cards can't work. However they can be really frustrating and costly to resolve if one is unlucky enough to get noise from the PC, as I and also (it appears) us1070 was. IMO external cards make elimination of this much easier.
Last edited:
I've got noises issues with (high quality) external cards until they were isolated from the ground (galvanic isolation).
The lynx is renowned to be very silent without any isolation.
You perhaps should try to use your embedded internal motherboard card and two OEPZ1604 transformers on the output... then try to hear if it sounds good
only 7€
Z1604 OEP (OXFORD ELECTRICAL PRODUCTS), Transformateur audio, 600 ohm, 600 ohm, Traversant | Farnell element14 France
Thanks for the suggestion, but unfortunately I spent the best part of a year trying different solutions like that, none of which worked. I won't start tinkering all over again; there is no need - using a digital line to external cards/DACs, even very cheap ones, solved the issue instantly. And of course they also work with laptops and other small, low-power devices, which are ideal for 'always on' media players. For me, the days of using internal cards in big PCs just for playing media are over.
Yes, you can still get ground noise but the only time I actually encountered that was due to ground loops between computer and amplifier. Being due to an identifiable and external cause this was 'much' easier to track down and resolve. Many portable computers aren't even grounded these days, which helps too.
Yes, you can still get ground noise but the only time I actually encountered that was due to ground loops between computer and amplifier. Being due to an identifiable and external cause this was 'much' easier to track down and resolve. Many portable computers aren't even grounded these days, which helps too.
Oups... i haven't read the topic subject.
My transformer is not designed for a digital line.
Since i often use my old portable computer on AC at home the problem is always here for me... could you give me a cheap noiseless model of digital line to external cards/DAC please ?
Ah, I see. Yes, ground noise and PC noise via digital and analogue are slightly different things.
If your old portable has an optical digital output then that should isolate any external DAC/soundcard from most ground noise and also most PC-induced noises. But if it has only wired outputs then even digital ones can carry ground noise through to external DACs and amps, so if your old portable is grounded and has a noisy ground then its a problem. I believe you can get special USB ground decouplers but I haven't tried them myself, or you could get a USB to optical converter but introducing an extra conversion stage isn't ideal.
It may be that you are getting ground loop noise, in which case plugging the amp and portable PC into the same socket can help, or even better if (safely) possible only grounding one of them. I managed to un-ground an old laptop by changing its PSU to a more modern type, but I was lucky to find a compatible one. You could in theory just disconnect the laptop PSU's earth, this works very well but is not likely to be a safe thing to do.
If your old portable has an optical digital output then that should isolate any external DAC/soundcard from most ground noise and also most PC-induced noises. But if it has only wired outputs then even digital ones can carry ground noise through to external DACs and amps, so if your old portable is grounded and has a noisy ground then its a problem. I believe you can get special USB ground decouplers but I haven't tried them myself, or you could get a USB to optical converter but introducing an extra conversion stage isn't ideal.
It may be that you are getting ground loop noise, in which case plugging the amp and portable PC into the same socket can help, or even better if (safely) possible only grounding one of them. I managed to un-ground an old laptop by changing its PSU to a more modern type, but I was lucky to find a compatible one. You could in theory just disconnect the laptop PSU's earth, this works very well but is not likely to be a safe thing to do.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.