Yes, this is the assuming part. People spend all kind of money of magic wire when what really matters is the connectors. You'd think they first swap out connectors on their equipment.
The entire professional audio world uses Nuetrik XLR connectors but those require a balanced signal that aren't used in consumer gear. For single ended audio frequency signals the only trouble with RCA is that they don't lock and it's just a friction fit.
cliffffffffff,
I asked my question because:
- like every other diyAudio member. I have the right to ask my question(s) here.
- after perusing the different possible places to ask my question(s) on this issue. I felt asking my question here was the most appropriate spot to do so.
- despite your outlook on wires. I've discovered some members, even those who are primarily measurement & spec oriented, believe digital wires have their own unique sound.
- not all members here are prone to responding to others who disagree with their POV on a topic with smart alec, snide remark.
Hopefully that is a sufficient enough response to your question. Now I undertsand you certainly have the right to do so. Due to your past history of aggressive and very confrontational responses to my posts in Audio Asylum and IIRC even here in diyAudio as well. I don't know why you'd even bother to respond to any questions I post. Perhaps you noticed every one who posted believed that digital wires that are properly matched to the components they'll be used with, will have no unique sound? Did you also notice even though they disagreed with my POV. Not one single person ---{besides yourself that is}--- questioned why I'd post my question here? Especially since you'll have nothing of value to add in direct response to the question(s).
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Don't think so. I know Tom, and he is a very sincere guy. I firmly believe that he's sincerely wrong, but no way he's trolling.
I have used this Oyaide cable .. very good value for money..
DR-510 / DB-510 ????????????????????????????????oyaide?
If you can try switching from RCA connectors to BNC.. BNC sounds much better than RCAs on my Shigaclone and BII Dac
DR-510 / DB-510 ????????????????????????????????oyaide?
If you can try switching from RCA connectors to BNC.. BNC sounds much better than RCAs on my Shigaclone and BII Dac
How do you know your system is matched, have the PCB traces been laid out to have a 75 ohm characteristic impedance, I would say not, and even then you can expect +/-20% if you are lucky, same with connectors etc., but for this application it doesn't really matter or make any difference to the signal integrity.
Tom, DH-Labs have new D-750 cable. Do not spend more than it costs. Ready cable will cost you ~130$
I have it's predecessor - D-75 - quite impressive if you compare to other digital cables.
Have not heard D-750, but it should be slightly better then D-75, as DH-Labs says.
That's not what I'm doing at all clifffffff. What I'm doing is calling a spade a spade and pointing out how this post is in keeping with your past history of responding to my questions in an aggressive and confrontational manner. You seem incapable of replying to even the simplest of my questions without belittling, denigrating, disparaging or calumniating me! It's either that or you start with your name calling.
Those who know me and have met me, like SY has, know that I'm not trolling! I'm also nothing like you seem to believe I am. I simply hold to a different belief system about audio and wires than you and many others ---{including SY}--- hold to. I'm sorry that your incapable of tolerating those who disagree with your audio world-view.
Hopefully in the future you'll come to understand that just because others hold different beliefs than yours that doesn't mean you have to respond with name-calling or in a manner that's belittling, denigrating, disparaging or calumniating.
For Example: I don't agree with your POV on wires. But that's not why I find your post offensive. I find your post offensive because of how you respond, period.
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Tom, I'm still impressed that someone wouldn't consider $500 for interconnects to be "expensive wires."
Sy considering that I'm using a $12.5K 40W/ch SET amp that in turn has $700 pair of Bendix 6900 tubes, Mazda "silver-plate" 6189 and a quad of 845B ---{soon to be Psvane 845-T}--- tubes installed. Using a pair of $500 ICs isn't what I see as "expensive wires." Especially after you consider they replaced $10K ICs! Now that's an expensive set of wires in my book.
The $500 ICs is expensive wires to you because you don't believe wires have a unique sound. However if you've heard $500 ICs make sonic improvements to an audio system that are equal to what you'd expect when upgrading from say a $500 preamp to $3000 preamp. Then those $500 wires would no longer seem expensive to you. In fact, like me, you might start considering them a bargain.
Remember my friend my offer to prove to you in person that I can detect sonic differences in ICs still stands. My only stipulations are:
- I MUST be intimately familiar with the audio system that we are to use. Thus to ease the problems that might cause. It would behoove us to use my audio system. SY since you've seen and heard my audio system. I don't believe you'd have a problem with our using it.
- All wire changes MUST be made manually by one person physically replacing one set of ICs with another set of ICs by hand. There will be no ABX boxes installed into the system that would introduce additional wires and it's internal components into the system! By switching ICs manually we will be keeping the system as simple as possible and it will remain the system that I am intimately familiar with sonically. The ONLY possible sonic changes I would hear would have to be a result of the wires being used.
- I get to choose the music used for testing.
- Someone I know well & trust will stay with SY at all times during the test. While someone SY knows well & trusts will stay with me at all times. This is just to keep things honest.
- If after reading this there are things you require added or if there's anything you take issue with about what I've written above. We would discuss and agree upon any changes before we'd meet.
This wire dilemma has been with us audiophiles for ages. Unlike many others I'm willing to put my convictions to the test. That alone should convince others ---{even if they disagree with my POV on wires}--- that I honestly believe what I'm saying about wires having their own unique sonic sound!
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
SY,
Thanks for your kind words. I'm glad there was someone in this thread that has actually met me, talked with me, sat and drank beer me, listened to tunes and talked audio with me. You at least have some first-hand knowledge about from which to draw when you made your comments.
What you said is 100% true. I am not trolling. I am completely sincere in my beliefs about wires and you completely disagree with my beliefs. Yet unlike with clifffffffff you and I were able to be friends, enjoy each other's company, share beer and listen to music together ---{Sy had some interesting recording he'd made}--- and we did that will disagreeing with each other about wires! Now how in the heck do you suppose that could happen?
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Thanks BTW. I'll check that cable out. Unfortunately my cdp/transport only has XLR or RCA out. However my DAC accepts four different types of inputs with BNC being one of those. I would if I a cable would sound better with RCA at the transport end and BNC at that DAC end?
Just to see if I can hear differences in 75 ohm coax wires ---{I haven't done any comparisons yet so this will be my first test}--- I purchased a new 75 ohm coax cable at Radio Shack tonight when I picked my wife up from work at the bus stop. Tomorrow I'll remove the AudioQuest 75 ohm coax a friend lent me and I'll put in the Radio Shack 75 ohm coax. After I've done some back and forth listening tests. I'll post here whether or not I heard a difference. So see you all tomorrow...
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Yes some people are serious but wrong. I once worked with a guy who was a competent engineer. The field was radar. He firmly believed the blind testing was a poor method because it nearly always was never able to show any difference between products.
I'm not making this up. He actually believed the method was not effective
He said that when he KNOWS which product he is hearing he can always tell you wich one he like best so this method must be more effective because it actually produces a usful result.
You just can't argue with a non-logical believe. Applying any about of logic or reason can't
I even tried this argument: OK so you say we can't hear any difference until we know the brand of speaker wire. Right? So if I come into your house and secretly swap out your expensive cable and put in a generic Home Depot extension cord you would not notice the difference untill one day when you saw the orage cable on the floor. You'd listen for weeks and never know.
He then started talking about Schrödinger's cat and how it prove his point that you have to look at the wire and then the sound becomes known.
Arguing further is pointless. We all know the problem is a psychological "confirmation bias" but people like to think they, among all humans on earth are immune to such. I try to explain that the wire has FAR to many atoms to allow analogy to Schrödinger's example
There is another effect that combines with this. I call it "Standing on a sheet of plastic food wrap so you can see farther". The logic goes that if you are taller you can see farther. So in theory if we stand of one sheet of food wrap film we will be a few micrometers taller. The effect must be real but the practical difference is no existent. Typically when they say thy can hear something they have a standing on film type argument and then argue that blind testing is simply to in-senitive a test to detect it. But they can hear it if they look.
As I said, these guys are series, just illogical
Hi Tom,
From my experiments.. yes, I still prefer a digital cable with one end BNC.. as compared to both ends RCAs. In fact I like the BNC so much that I converted my Shigaclone to accept BNC, well woth the effort..
Btw I also tried some cheap Audioquest Coaxial silver cable I got from the ebay.. quite good sounding.. but I prefer the Oyaide better.
From my experiments.. yes, I still prefer a digital cable with one end BNC.. as compared to both ends RCAs. In fact I like the BNC so much that I converted my Shigaclone to accept BNC, well woth the effort..
Btw I also tried some cheap Audioquest Coaxial silver cable I got from the ebay.. quite good sounding.. but I prefer the Oyaide better.
Hi xjr100! I just checked out the DH Labs D-750 digital wire. It seems nice and as you commented at $130 it's quite reasonably priced. It's definitely a contender. Today I'll be directly comparing an AudioQuest 75 ohm digital wire against a Radio Shack $19.95 75 ohm digital wire. As I've never compared digital wires before now this should be a very interesting test. If Sy and the other guys are correct I shouldn't detect and sonic differences between my friend's $500 AudioQuest 75 ohm cable and the $20 Radio Shack 75 ohm cable ---only time will tell! I'll post my opinion of the two wires later today. Thanks again...
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Definitely there will be the difference. All is jitter-related, as cheap cables do not provide stable 75Ohm and it is very important for wave transmission - it is not as with analog audio. If you can go fo BNC - it's even better, as BNCs are more precise connectors in terms of 75Ohms.
I've compared D-75 vs cheap cables - TechLink and Hama with SPDIF out. On oscilloscope you can see that D-75 have more square front vs cheap cables (they rounded). I've posted those pictures here http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/parts/220756-looking-silver-digital-coax-3.html
As usually "cable thread" splitted into believers and skeptics
Definitely there will be the difference. All is jitter-related, as cheap cables do not provide stable 75Ohm and it is very important for wave transmission - it is not as with analog audio. If you can go fo BNC - it's even better, as BNCs are more precise connectors in terms of 75Ohms.
I've compared D-75 vs cheap cables - TechLink and Hama with SPDIF out. On oscilloscope you can see that D-75 have more square front vs cheap cables (they rounded). I've posted those pictures here http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/parts/220756-looking-silver-digital-coax-3.html
As usually "cable thread" splitted into believers and skeptics
Both waves show ringing and multiple reflections, there are mismatches in both lines, and excessive energy is being reflected back from the receiver.
Neither are desirable, a slight rounding of the top edges are not a bad thing. The slight difference in edges is immaterial and would not effect data received.
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