Let me turn this argument around:
How many worrying about the SPDIF and 75 ohm cable have fitted audiophile clock add-ons to their equipment, and how many that have done this have matched the clock output drive to the circuitry, and how many have bothered about impedance mismatched between the clock output, the usually long wire to connect to the mother PCB and the traces on the mother PCB?
How many worrying about the SPDIF and 75 ohm cable have fitted audiophile clock add-ons to their equipment, and how many that have done this have matched the clock output drive to the circuitry, and how many have bothered about impedance mismatched between the clock output, the usually long wire to connect to the mother PCB and the traces on the mother PCB?
Pony guys, if you were REAL audiophiles, you would recoginize that only 7/16 or C connectors with teflon dielectric are really suitable and that SF6 pressurized 1.5 inch Andrews or Times Microwave hardline is the way to get the most air in the sound (After all, we wouldnt want the line flashing over).
Ah, someone else has noticed that the really shonky connectors also tend to be the shiniest.
Regards, Dan.
Ah, someone else has noticed that the really shonky connectors also tend to be the shiniest.
Regards, Dan.
Tom, google how coaxial cable works. It is not the way how analog signals from source to preamp transmited. And important not only center conductor with lowerst possible resistance, but cable construction, termination = how it is good as transmission line, what maximum bandwidth it allows, rathen then materials itself.
In selection of top-performing coax cable for SPDIF you probably can find, that cables in range 100...500$ can sound different, but you hardly select which one is better. If you compare 5$ cable vs >100$ cable you definitely find that 100$ cable is better.
In 100-500$ range: there are a lot of marketing
Hello xjr100!
I know the coaxial cable transferring the digital signal from my Goldenote Stibbert V CDP ---{used as a transport}--- to my Audio-gd Reference 1 DAC is not working the same way as the IC's transferring the analog signals from the Audio-gd Reference 1 DAC to my Mastersound Reference 845, integrated SET amp are. However knowing that does not negate my desire to listen to both solid silver core & solid copper core digital wires for myself.
To see:
- If I can even detect a difference between silver & copper in a digital, 75 ohm coax.
- And if I can detect a difference, which metal sounds the most like live, unamplified, acoustic instruments & singers!
What harm is there in listening for myself? If your beliefs are correct. Then I'll be unable to detect any differences between the solid silver core & solid copper core digital wires! But what if for reasons unbeknownst to us all. I actually can reliably detect differences between the solid silver core & solid copper core digital wires? The only way I'll ever know the answer to this question is to try for myself and that's what I plan on doing!
I'd also like to disagree with a part of your statement from above where you stated; "In selection of top-performing coax cable for SPDIF you probably can find, that cables in range 100...500$ can sound different, but you hardly select which one is better." My friend I have to vehemently disagree with that, because;
- If I can probably find a coax cables in range $100 to $500 that can sound different, like you stated I probably could!
- Than I can guarantee you xjr100, if I can detect a sonic difference in coax cables I'd be capable of selecting which one is "better" when better equals the coax cable sounds the most like live, unamplified, acoustic instruments & singers.
Now having said all this. I'd like to be crystal clear that this all pertains to when these wires ---{be they used for analogue or digital purposes}--- are installed in my system only! For as much as I've discovered wires have their own, unique sound. I've also discovered the wire's unique sound to be very system dependent. So I would have absolutely no idea if the wires would sound the same in another system as they sound in my system!
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
The key word is "reliably." Casual swapping or poor controls do not constitute "reliably," especially when you're talking about claims of violations of very basic first principles. Not that this has stopped snake oil peddlers and their suckers....
Hi marce! I have absolutely no idea how a silver conductor would make any difference over a copper conductor carrying digital signals. But knowing how or why something operates does not negate the fact that something unbeknownst to us all is having an affect. That's why I just want to try and listen for myself. Please read my response to xjr100 above this response for a more detailed answer.
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
SY you know me and you know my beliefs are sincere. I know you disagree with my beliefs and that's perfectly ok with me. That's why I've given you the offer to test me at your convenience.
I'd also like to clarify a statement I've previously made in this thread. I recently received an email from a friend I know from another forum who read this thread. He asked me if I could honestly reliably detect the difference between silver & copper ICs carrying analogue signals in my system without previously knowing what they were. I replied to his email with "Of course not!" My friend replied back telling me to go back and reread what I posted as that's how he took what I posted to mean and so that's probably what everyone who read what I posted also thought I meant!
So after rereading my previous posts I now agree with my friend and realize that posts sounded as if I meant I could detect the difference between all silver & copper ICs installed in my system without ever previously hearing them and knowing which one was silver or copper. I'm sorry for how I worded my previous posts and apologize for any misunderstandings I might have caused.
What I should have made a lot more clear was I was referring to the silver and copper ICs I own and know the sound of intimately. With these ICs I could tell you whether it's the silver or copper ICs installed in my system. Now while I do know I can detect difference between other silver and copper ICs. I don't believe I could tell you ---reliably--- if an IC was either silver or copper, if it was installed in my system and I wasn't familiar with the IC.
I hope that makes what I was attempting to previously say clear to everyone now. If not, please ask me any questions you might have about what I previously posted and I'll attempt to answer your questions clearly for you. Again I apologize for any misunderstandings I may have caused. I'll also make ever effort to be more clear in what I mean in my future posts here.
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Just use any old 75 Ohm coax or buy a cable from Cablemart, BlueJean, Monoprice, and quit over thinking this. It ain't freeking magic!
The BlueJean Belden 1694A is as good as it gets for under $20 US and that is with super fancy RCA's that do no better than the ten cent ones from Radio Shack. No $50 cables here! I am sure there are also honest dealers in Europe too. 1695 if you need plenum rated.
This is NOT where you are going to improve your sound. The DAC, The Amp, The speakers, and least we forget THE SOURCE. If you don't have 196K 24 bit FLAC files, you are totally out of your league here worrying about the PCM cable.
The BlueJean Belden 1694A is as good as it gets for under $20 US and that is with super fancy RCA's that do no better than the ten cent ones from Radio Shack. No $50 cables here! I am sure there are also honest dealers in Europe too. 1695 if you need plenum rated.
This is NOT where you are going to improve your sound. The DAC, The Amp, The speakers, and least we forget THE SOURCE. If you don't have 196K 24 bit FLAC files, you are totally out of your league here worrying about the PCM cable.
Hi Julf!
After 46 years of being involved in this hobby. I know it isn't magic. However I also know that measurements & specs don't tell the story either when it comes to how telling me good ---{when good means sounds like live, unamplified, acoustic instruments & singers}--- a component will sound. That's why I experiment and listen for myself.
As far my source goes I'm using a $6K, tubed, Goldenote Stibbert CDP as a transport to feed an Audio-gd Reference 7.1 DAC that has the build quality of a Mark Levinson or other DACs of that caliper if not better! You can see it and the rest of my system here: Audio-gd Reference 7.1 DAC
As of now my:
- Source: Goldenote Stibbert V
- DAC: Audio-gd Reference 7.1
- Amp: Mastersound Reference 845, integrated SET
- Speakers: Sachiko double-back-loaded horns with Dayton PS220-8 full-range drivers that have received a $450 cone treatment and Fostex T900a super-tweeters crossed in @ 10K
Julf for now my components are as good as I can afford! I'm disabled and living on a fixed income. So all I can afford to work with are the tubes & wires in an attempt to further improve the sound of my system. I have to forego tubes now because to replace my 845-B with either a quad of Psvane 845-TII costs $970 and a quad of Psvane WE845 costs $1596. Replacing the Bendix 6900 is $700 a pair and thankfully the Mazda "silver-plate" 6189 tubes I use I have at least 6 more pairs as replacements. So wires it is and wires is what I'm playing with. But I genuinely appreciate your taking the time to respond to my posts and give your opinion.
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Hi, Tom,
You are addressing me, but I just need to point out that the text you quote is not from me, but from tvrgeek.
I feel such a beginner, only been at it for 35 years
I agree that measurements will only tell how good a component is in an absolute, objective sense - as in "how well does it do what it is specified to do". Measurements don't tell much about what sounds good *to you*. The only one who can tell that is you, by listening.
Impressive system - love the horn speakers! But you are only using the Goldenote Stibbert as a transport? I assume the tubes are in the analong, not the digital signal path?
If I was in your situation - and I probably will, at some point - I would not worry about the wires, I would spend the money and effort on the actual music (and maybe some thick curtains to minimize reflections from the window glass). But that is what I would do, we all prioritize different things.
Anyway, lovely system!
Julf
You are addressing me, but I just need to point out that the text you quote is not from me, but from tvrgeek.
I feel such a beginner, only been at it for 35 years
I agree that measurements will only tell how good a component is in an absolute, objective sense - as in "how well does it do what it is specified to do". Measurements don't tell much about what sounds good *to you*. The only one who can tell that is you, by listening.
Impressive system - love the horn speakers! But you are only using the Goldenote Stibbert as a transport? I assume the tubes are in the analong, not the digital signal path?
If I was in your situation - and I probably will, at some point - I would not worry about the wires, I would spend the money and effort on the actual music (and maybe some thick curtains to minimize reflections from the window glass). But that is what I would do, we all prioritize different things.
Anyway, lovely system!
Julf
So you may just be hearing small changes in frequency reponse caused by cable capacitance and a source with an unduly high output impedance, but then misattributing this to conductor metal? This is a common mistake, and much more likely with poorly engineered 'high end' equipment.thetubeguy1954 said:
Cable capacitance in the PCM cable is not going to cause these things. Just physics. You can recover the bitstream, or you don't. If the cable causes jitter detected by the DAC, then the recovery circuit is not up to par and needs work. Don't expect a cable to fix a poor digital implementation.
Yea, I have been in this hobby for about 45 years too. I am also an engineer. It sounds like the OP has tweak-itis. We all have suffered from that more than once. I firmly believe this is not the place to be looking for that last one percent. I vote for room treatments. No room is perfect and we all have different tastes, so it is a great place to play and no one can argue with your results!
Room treatment is more like the first 80+% IMHO, everything else is secondary, with the speakers making up most of the remainder, and the music collection also having a certain amount of importance.
Electronics comes a LONG way behind the above, and wire a long way behind the electronics.
Regards, Dan.
Electronics comes a LONG way behind the above, and wire a long way behind the electronics.
Regards, Dan.
Ah, You had me worried there for a second DF!
Now, as it happens I use the same Belden cable for analog ICs. I make them nice and short to fit. Maybe, just maybe, using my outboard DAC and my head amp, listing to Grado's on a Shefield CD, maybe I could hear the difference between some expensive Cardas cables, some cut down cheap ones, and my DIY. All were 14 inch to be fair. If I were to spend more money in that thread, it would be for higher end Grados, or more beer. After all, beer goggles work on stereo's too.
Now, as it happens I use the same Belden cable for analog ICs. I make them nice and short to fit. Maybe, just maybe, using my outboard DAC and my head amp, listing to Grado's on a Shefield CD, maybe I could hear the difference between some expensive Cardas cables, some cut down cheap ones, and my DIY. All were 14 inch to be fair. If I were to spend more money in that thread, it would be for higher end Grados, or more beer. After all, beer goggles work on stereo's too.
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