About tube DACs?

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The OP asked for comments but has now made it clear that he doesn't want technical comments, so I guess that just leaves unsupported anecdotes. The difficulty is that other people's taste in distortion and frequency response imbalance may differ from the OP's. It would be like asking people for restaurant recommendations, but forbidding them to describe the food. "I didn't enjoy it" is OK; "the chef oversalted it" would be too technical.

I think that summarizes it pretty well. So be it.
 
I will give a summary of this thread. In post #1, the OP stated that he is looking for that tube sound but with better resolution than the MHDT Havana.

There are those who understand him just fine, and recommended the Unbalancer tube output stage for Bufallo III, which I've not built myself but it looks like a good project that would satisfy the OP's requirements.

And others also understood what the OP prefers, and recommended other solutions that probably also would satisfy the OP's requirements.

Certainly far superior than cheap Chinese offerings.

Interesting. Have you actually heard the product in question? If not, I guess the only possible criteria for your judgement are "cheap" and "Chinese". As most circuit boards in even high-end products "made in USA" and "made in Europe" are Chinese-made these days, I guess it boils down to "an expensive product must be far superior to a less expensive one". Yes, I agree, knowing that you are listening to a comfortably expensive box probably does enhance your listening experience.
 
The OP asked for comments but has now made it clear that he doesn't want technical comments, so I guess that just leaves unsupported anecdotes. The difficulty is that other people's taste in distortion and frequency response imbalance may differ from the OP's. It would be like asking people for restaurant recommendations, but forbidding them to describe the food. "I didn't enjoy it" is OK; "the chef oversalted it" would be too technical.

That's not quite the case. I DO want to hear comments and experiences on how different tube DACs sound on everybody's experience, and in which way some DAC sounded better than the other. But I DO NOT care a bit why it might be so. For example Stephensanks' answers did hit right on a spot; I got a hint on Monarchy MN24, so I can continue to read more about it around the internet, and maybe even listen one somewhere.

If we continue with this restaurant comparison; I have eaten a really good steak, and next time I would like to get even a better one. I know that I do like stakes, because I have been enjoying them for 20 years now. So, I would like to hear your opinions that what kind of steak would be even than the previous.

But, now I'm getting lots of comments that "don't go that way, you really should eat meat balls, they are great", or "steaks can't be good since I once got a bad one on a local restaurant" or "did you know that steak might contain 3% of fat, and that tastes bad". ;) :D
 
If we continue with this restaurant comparison; I have eaten a really good steak, and next time I would like to get even a better one. I know that I do like stakes, because I have been enjoying them for 20 years now. So, I would like to hear your opinions that what kind of steak would be even than the previous.

But, now I'm getting lots of comments that "don't go that way, you really should eat meat balls, they are great", or "steaks can't be good since I once got a bad one on a local restaurant" or "did you know that steak might contain 3% of fat, and that tastes bad". ;) :D

I think a better analogy is that you state that you really don't like steak unless it is served with Heinz 57 sauce. What we are saying is that the reason you like the Heinz sauce is because it is ketchup spiced with mustard seed, so you might want to try Worcestershire sauce or A1 Steak Sauce.

OK, have we stretched the analogies far enough now?
 
...but there is some vinegar in Worcestershire sauce and A1 Steak Sauce, and I'm deadly allergic for it ;=)

Ok, back to topic, please :=)

Does anyone else have any experience on Audio Note or Monarchy...? Or any other comparable product?

Okay, please forgive my ignorance but where do you go to listen to and evaluate these esoteric devices? In real life?

~~~~~~~~~
All things good to know are difficult to learn.
{Greek Proverb}


Heaven is under our feet as well as over our heads.
~ Henry David Thoreau

He who asks may be a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever.
{Chinese Proverb}
 
haha that you took the time to dig that up from a couple pages ago and carry it on says it all really. I guess you have a very bad sarcasm meter as to my tag line.

peace? lol

before further a due, welcome to a certain list in my user options. possibly the quickest entry there yet

do you find it difficult to communicate effectively without pictures?
 
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Interesting. Have you actually heard the product in question? If not, I guess the only possible criteria for your judgement are "cheap" and "Chinese". As most circuit boards in even high-end products "made in USA" and "made in Europe" are Chinese-made these days, I guess it boils down to "an expensive product must be far superior to a less expensive one". Yes, I agree, knowing that you are listening to a comfortably expensive box probably does enhance your listening experience.

Their schematics are often public and there are often obvous flaws with them. I also don't like their choice of tubes. You don't always have to listen directly to make a judgment, if you've heard similar designs and don't like them. Anyone with experience in this hobby should have their biases at this point. And Julf, there is no need to be sarcastic.

I personally don't use tube output stages, but have heard them, and I know that if done right, they have a lot of potential. One of which is a wider ability to tune the sound than an SS stage with the ability to use certain simple topologies.
 
Anyone with experience in this hobby should have their biases at this point.

Sure - but it would perhaps have been better for you to state that you don't like their choice in tubes, rather than use the rather broad "cheap Chinese" paintbrush?

And Julf, there is no need to be sarcastic.

My apologies - but it is hard not to get both cynical and sarcastic when faced with all the audiophile superstition. In this case, you are dismissing gear based on cheap price and a choice of tubes that is not to your liking, without neither having heard the product or seen the schematics. As I pointed out, country of origin is no differentiator these days, when "made in <country>" seems to mean "some final assembly done in <country>".

I personally don't use tube output stages, but have heard them, and I know that if done right, they have a lot of potential. One of which is a wider ability to tune the sound than an SS stage with the ability to use certain simple topologies.

For tune-ability, I would say a decent DSP gives a lot more potential...
 
It's not easy nor cheap to build a box that can simulate your choice of output impedance nor simulate the harmonics profile of an amplifier. Are you going to develop such a product?

I have no need for such a product, as my components all have a low enough output impedance, and for "harmonic profiling" most off-the-shelf DSP units are more than enough. Anyway, I am into diy audio, not products.
 
I have no need for such a product, as my components all have a low enough output impedance, and for "harmonic profiling" most off-the-shelf DSP units are more than enough. Anyway, I am into diy audio, not products.

What off the shelf DSP products can selectively add harmonics?

Low output impedance is not what everyone wants. Some like low, some like mid, some like high. Maybe your preference is served by an nCore, but others may not think highly of such an amp, and prefer a tube amp.

Also, how do you know that your nCores are not colored? There are just too many factors. In a live setting, with room reflections and longer travel for the sound waves, the harmonics are higher than what gets to the microphone. How is one to say that lower harmonics is always more realistic reproduction of the live event?
 
What off the shelf DSP products can selectively add harmonics?

Any that allow a non-linear transfer function.

Low output impedance is not what everyone wants. Some like low, some like mid, some like high. Maybe your preference is served by an nCore, but others may not think highly of such an amp, and prefer a tube amp.

But my point is that the effect of the higher impedance can be emulated with a DSP.

Also, how do you know that your nCores are not colored?

A combination of measurement data and double-blind ABX listening.

How is one to say that lower harmonics is always more realistic reproduction of the live event?

Ah, that question is probably as old as "hi-fi", if not older. I guess the standard answer is that it is generally best to assume that the recording, as-is, is the closest approximation we have to how the artist or sound engineer intended it to sound, and avoid colouring or distorting it in any way.
 
Julf, can you give a link to a DSP product that does this (higher output impedance emulation, adding harmonics)? Something that can either work standalone (hardware) or interface with the operating system (if this was easy to do, I would have programmed it myself).
 
My point is, if the people here would rather argue about the OP's desire to use tubes in the DAC, then they should propose a better solution. They propose DSP instead of tubes. If that's viable solution, then good. If not, then why question the OP's desire to have tubes in his DAC? Just to feel superior because they themselves prefer opamps that measure better?
 
Julf, can you give a link to a DSP product that does this (higher output impedance emulation, adding harmonics)? Something that can either work standalone (hardware) or interface with the operating system (if this was easy to do, I would have programmed it myself).

As I wrote, adding harmonics is simply done with a non-linear transform. No fancy processing needed, any DSP can do it. The guitar fuzz/distortion pedal is the simplest example. The effect of output impedance is mostly a simple frequency deviation, but depending on your speaker, the effect of a lower damping factor can be analyzed and replicated - again, the DSP part is not demanding.
 
My point is, if the people here would rather argue about the OP's desire to use tubes in the DAC, then they should propose a better solution. They propose DSP instead of tubes. If that's viable solution, then good. If not, then why question the OP's desire to have tubes in his DAC? Just to feel superior because they themselves prefer opamps that measure better?

I was not opposed to the OP using tubes. I proposed a solution where he/she could add a tube buffer without having to be constrained to DACs with built-in tube buffers. Am I the only one feeling we are going around in circles here...
 
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