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Old 26th January 2013, 08:54 AM   #141
Julf is offline Julf  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxalito View Post
No for the simple reason that I haven't a clue how to select the 'properly designed solid state circuit' in order to make the comparison - not for want of asking.
As I said, 'forget the whole "properly designed" part'.

So, can you show me any factual evidence of tubes sounding objectively better than a solid state circuit?

Quote:
When you're ready for a 'proper' scientific dialog about high-end design then let me know
I assume your definition of "proper" here is "in whatever terms abraxalito deems suitable".

I am asking for some simple, factual evidence. You are using a lot of space and energy in order to try to weasel yourself out of that question.
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Old 26th January 2013, 09:01 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julf View Post
So, can you show me any factual evidence of tubes sounding objectively better than a solid state circuit?
A solid state circuit chosen at random?

Quote:
I assume your definition of "proper" here is "in whatever terms abraxalito deems suitable".
Its commendable that you're stating your assumptions. However no, this time its wrong. I meant a discussion where you check your self-importance at the door. Would that be too much to ask?

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I am asking for some simple, factual evidence. You are using a lot of space and energy in order to try to weasel yourself out of that question.
I noticed no well-formed question. Anyone can claim what they say is a question...
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Old 26th January 2013, 09:07 AM   #143
Julf is offline Julf  Europe
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Originally Posted by abraxalito View Post
A solid state circuit chosen at random?
Ah, yes, no attempt to answer. Are you honestly claiming you don't understand the question, or are you just trying to avoid answering it?

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Its commendable that you're stating your assumptions. However no, this time its wrong. I meant a discussion where you check your self-importance at the door. Would that be too much to ask?
Please define self-importance in a false-able way.

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I noticed no well-formed question. Anyone can claim what they say is a question...
Just like anyone can claim not to understand a question. I think you *have* actually answered the question (by going to extreme lengths to avoid having to answer it), so let's move on...
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Old 26th January 2013, 09:13 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Julf View Post
Ah, yes, no attempt to answer.
There's a reason for that - if you digested the last line of my last post you'll have a clue what that reason is.

Quote:
Are you honestly claiming you don't understand the question, or are you just trying to avoid answering it?
False premise. I understand in vague terms what you're asking but there's not enough detail to pin it down for an answer to apply. That's fine - you're not obliged to provide detail, just if you want a reasonable discussion then it will have to be forthcoming.

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Please define self-importance in a false-able way.
Ego. Personality stuff - science is ego-free right? Not sure if those count as falsifiable, but perhaps they do clarify?

<snipped irrelevance>
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Old 26th January 2013, 09:20 AM   #145
Julf is offline Julf  Europe
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Originally Posted by abraxalito View Post
There's a reason for that - if you digested the last line of my last post you'll have a clue what that reason is.

False premise. I understand in vague terms what you're asking but there's not enough detail to pin it down for an answer to apply. That's fine - you're not obliged to provide detail, just if you want a reasonable discussion then it will have to be forthcoming.
OK, let's try with a simple one then - can you show me any factual evidence of a tube amplifier sounding better than a solid state amplifier that has been designed for the same purpose and is in the same price category?

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science is ego-free right?
Never has, never will be...

The real question is if the ego (or lack of it) matters. Does it alter the facts?

How about arguing facts rather than personality traits?
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Old 26th January 2013, 09:23 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Julf View Post
No, the question is if the minuscule addition is audible or not
.

Well that's right. And since there are clear differences between solid state devices, these colorationd are clearly audible for all of us.

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Originally Posted by Julf View Post
While, on an individual level, "every transistor, every diode", and even every resistor has some minuscule contribution to the signal, the feedback loop in a typical amplifier circuit actually corrects and nulls out that contribution.
There is no feedback loop that could correct all the changes that components make for the signal, and remove the distortion that was generatd by components.

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Originally Posted by Julf View Post
Thanks - I think you just argued my case. The reason a lot of people like tube sound is "due to the non-linear clipping that occurs with tube amps, or due to the higher levels of second-order harmonic distortion, common in single-ended designs resulting from the characteristics of the tube interacting with the inductance of the output transformer". As in tubes causing a "pleasing" (rather than "accurate") sound.
You totally missed the point on this. Where in this text it says that this "warmth" is negative term? Do you think that second-order harmonic distortion is bad for the sound, compared to other harmonics?

And opposite of the warmth is not "accuracy", it "coldness" (or correct me if I'm wrong with my English..;=) IMO, this warmth is just neautrality and accuracy, when listening for acoustic instruments.

The point was the part "source of this is by no means agreed on"; meaning that you just can not measure the device, and by the measurement tell if is sounds good or nor.

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Originally Posted by Julf View Post
Yes. To me that is one of the most important criteria for a car.
And I couldn't care less. So now you must be saying that I'm driving wrong??

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Originally Posted by Julf View Post
Agree. Can you tell me one of the hundreds of criteria where tubes measure better than semiconductors?
You really still don't get the point, no matter how many times it is repeated. Let's put this in capitals; YOU CANNOT MEASURE THE SOUND QUALITY WITH ANY KNOWN MEASUREMENT! Or if you really can, could please share this earth shaking measurement method with us?

This discussion was started by your DSP- recommendation. Do you Julf actually really think that DSP can change the solid state device so that is sounds like the tube one? This DSP should be able clean the signal of all colorations that the SS device added to the signal, so it should be able to output 100% "original" signal with no any colorations at all. Wow, quite a DSP...!

And about the ABX; I think it is quite useless to compare two more or less coloured devices to each other, and try to guess which one is more "neutral". You can surely hear the they are "different", and you can hear that which one is "better" for your ears and taste, but you can't tell anything about the neutrality or accuracy. For me, only comparison point is the live instrument, and how accuratly it's tonality is presented. And as I said, this is quite often the hard part.

So Julf, just get the idea of our tastes & preferences; how often do you go to live acoustic concerts, how often do you listen for live instruments or singing? What kind of tube devices & setups have you heard, to compare them for the live sessions?
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Old 26th January 2013, 09:25 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julf View Post
OK, let's try with a simple one then - can you show me any factual evidence of a tube amplifier sounding better than a solid state amplifier that has been designed for the same purpose and is in the same price category?
Still not enough detail - what in particular counts as 'factual evidence'? I have done no experiments with tube amps myself.

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Never has, never will be...
I agree in practice it hasn't been. But that's no reason not to aim for more efficient science.

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The real question is if the ego (or lack of it) matters. Does it alter the facts?
Depends what you mean by 'facts'. Certainly ego can get in the way simple observation, yes. People tend to see what they want to see. Hear what they want to hear. So yes, its most certainly an issue.

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How about arguing facts rather than personality traits?
Strawman.
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Old 26th January 2013, 09:33 AM   #148
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Greetings to you from China.

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Originally Posted by AlliumPorrum View Post
You really still don't get the point, no matter how many times it is repeated. Let's put this in capitals; YOU CANNOT MEASURE THE SOUND QUALITY WITH ANY KNOWN MEASUREMENT! Or if you really can, could please share this earth shaking measurement method with us?
I have an idea on this - what's great about tubes is their linearity in the presence of low-level HF interference. So if you were to measure IMD performance say -40dB down from clipping with a multitone signal that also included some even lower level (say -60dB) signals out of band, I believe you'd measure a difference between a tube circuit and a bipolar long-tailed pair.

That's my suggestion for a starting point
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Old 26th January 2013, 09:43 AM   #149
Julf is offline Julf  Europe
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Originally Posted by AlliumPorrum View Post
Well that's right. And since there are clear differences between solid state devices, these colorationd are clearly audible for all of us.
Just because there are measurable differences doesn't in any way imply that the differences are audible.

Quote:
There is no feedback loop that could correct all the changes that components make for the signal, and remove the distortion that was generatd by components.
Why not? Familiar with control theory?

Quote:
Where in this text it says that this "warmth" is negative term?
And where does it say it is a positive term?

Quote:
Do you think that second-order harmonic distortion is bad for the sound, compared to other harmonics?
I think significant amounts of distortion is bad, whatever harmonic you are looking at.

Quote:
And opposite of the warmth is not "accuracy", it "coldness" (or correct me if I'm wrong with my English..;=) IMO, this warmth is just neautrality and accuracy, when listening for acoustic instruments.
And since when has "warmth" meant "accuracy" in English (my third language)?

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The point was the part "source of this is by no means agreed on"; meaning that you just can not measure the device, and by the measurement tell if is sounds good or nor.
In many cases you can. There are a lot of audible distortions that are easily measurable.

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And I couldn't care less. So now you must be saying that I'm driving wrong??
No, you are probably just one of those annoying guys who take forever to get through a green light, leaving everyone behind him to wait for the next green

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YOU CANNOT MEASURE THE SOUND QUALITY WITH ANY KNOWN MEASUREMENT!
Shouting doesn't change the fact that a lot of the measurements (requency response, distortion etc.) do correspond to perceived sound quality.

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This discussion was started by your DSP- recommendation. Do you Julf actually really think that DSP can change the solid state device so that is sounds like the tube one?
Yes.

Amplifier modeling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Virtual Valve Amplifier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
This DSP should be able clean the signal of all colorations that the SS device added to the signal, so it should be able to output 100% "original" signal with no any colorations at all. Wow, quite a DSP...!
"No audible coloration" is very different from "no coloration at all".

Quote:
So Julf, just get the idea of our tastes & preferences; how often do you go to live acoustic concerts, how often do you listen for live instruments or singing?
About once a month. Amsterdam is fortunately blessed with a very active circuit.

Quote:
What kind of tube devices & setups have you heard, to compare them for the live sessions?
Would be quite an effort to list all the equipment I have worked with over the years - but it does include things like the Voimaradio tube amps designed by renowned Finnish guru Tapio M Köykkä...
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Old 26th January 2013, 09:57 AM   #150
Julf is offline Julf  Europe
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Originally Posted by abraxalito View Post
Still not enough detail - what in particular counts as 'factual evidence'?
Wikipedia is always a good starting point.

"The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability, that is whether it can be proven to correspond to experience. Standard reference works are often used to check facts. Scientific facts are verified by repeatable experiments."

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I have done no experiments with tube amps myself.
So why are we having this discussion then?

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Depends what you mean by 'facts'. Certainly ego can get in the way simple observation, yes. People tend to see what they want to see. Hear what they want to hear. So yes, its most certainly an issue.
Ego is definitely a factor in claims. So before we elevate claims to the status of acknowledged facts, we verify them, to filter out, among other things, the effects of the ego.

How did a discussion about DACs turn into a debate on epistemology?
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