$43000 "hi-end" DAC vs $50 consumer audio dac ? - Page 3 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Source & Line > Digital Line Level

Digital Line Level DACs, Digital Crossovers, Equalizers, etc.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10th October 2012, 04:15 AM   #21
PHEONIX is online now PHEONIX  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Australia
Quote:
From my POV, the key thing is that a hell of the seemingly minor, subtle, quality destroying issues seem to have been addressed, through one means or another, and that's really what this unit delivers. Yes, it shouldn't take that amount of money to get that quality of sound, but it serves as a proof of concept as to what digital should normally sound like ...

Frank
Hello Frank,

Could you clarify what you mean by seemingly minor, subtle quality destroying issues that seem to be addressed through one means or another.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th October 2012, 05:21 AM   #22
fas42 is online now fas42  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
fas42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NSW, Australia
Blog Entries: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxalito View Post
... I plan for my own design to deliver better IMD measurements and at least equal sound at a much lower price-point.
Easy, peasy, ... having been there many times, I know how staggeringly good digital sound can be, my belief is that there are almost no limits as to the level it can rise to ... just that, at the moment, it'll take the real pioneers to show the way, hopefully without having taken too many arrows ...

Frank
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th October 2012, 05:52 AM   #23
fas42 is online now fas42  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
fas42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NSW, Australia
Blog Entries: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHEONIX View Post
Could you clarify what you mean by seemingly minor, subtle quality destroying issues that seem to be addressed through one means or another.
Howdy, PHEONIX ... I've been banging on about this in online forums for a couple of years now, and all the fine detail is there in my many posts. abraxalito, and a few others "get it", and their efforts in moving things forward should be closely monitored.

Anyway, the guts of it is that a lack of attention to detail is a killer for digital sound, as in, the gap between overwhelmingly unpleasant sound, and a brilliant, incredibly realistic musical event, can be disturbingly small in terms of what has to be done to a system. Unlike much analogue sourced sound, digital demands precision in how it is decoded to sound "musical", which is why typically only very expensive, or very carefully tweaked systems achieve top notch results.

The people at msb have a very good understanding on the need to be fanatical in how they go about everything, and hence they achieve good results. The fact that they "cloak" their message with PR about 26 bits, or whatever, is just part of a sales pitch which is easy for a customer to grab onto ...

There is plenty of info here in diyAudio, in a number of threads, about the sort of things that can, and should be done: improving power supplies, RF shielding, grounding schemes, filtering poor mains power, static effects, there are a myriad of things to be addressed. And the big problem is, if just one thing, just one, is left undone or not done sufficiently well, then it brings the whole edifice to its knees ... and you end up with that typical grey, boring, harsh, dreary, lacking in "musicality", digital playback which makes many people run to their TTs and tape machines ...

Frank

Last edited by fas42; 10th October 2012 at 05:58 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th October 2012, 06:03 AM   #24
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
qusp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Brisbane, Australia
no, its not a sales pitch, its LIES.

Quote:
improving power supplies, RF shielding, grounding schemes, filtering poor mains power, static effects, there are a myriad of things to be addressed.
it seems all their efforts 2 box, fully shielded cans to house the dacs in, possibly potted. yet power supply noise still makes it through, past a level that can be attained wit a well designed LM317 reg? let alone a more involved design.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th October 2012, 06:16 AM   #25
wwenze is offline wwenze  Singapore
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
"Don't try to make sense out of nonsense"

A phrase I usually apply to TV shows and books...
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th October 2012, 06:42 AM   #26
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by fas42 View Post

The people at msb have a very good understanding on the need to be fanatical in how they go about everything, and hence they achieve good results. The fact that they "cloak" their message with PR about 26 bits, or whatever, is just part of a sales pitch which is easy for a customer to grab onto ...


Frank
but they got gazumped by a $50 "consumer grade" chip It seems that the folks at ESS have a better understanding of the problems involved and how to solve them without making the consumer payout 10's of thousands
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th October 2012, 07:23 AM   #27
fas42 is online now fas42  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
fas42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NSW, Australia
Blog Entries: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor White View Post
but they got gazumped by a $50 "consumer grade" chip It seems that the folks at ESS have a better understanding of the problems involved and how to solve them without making the consumer payout 10's of thousands
The thing is, what complete DAC out there has been able to match it with that msb, in an subjective evaluation by the obsessive, or fussy, using the ESS chips? Now, I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the Sabre parts, in fact they look very impressive to me, but until someone uses them in an audio component that can go head to head with say, the msb then the case is not "proven", so to speak.

Which is my way of saying that there's a pretty nasty learning curve with digital; it's not trivial to extract good sound out of any particular chip. The msb people have taken a certain road, which is expensive to the end consumer, and perhaps down the track they may decide to go the ESS route, if someone else gets top notch sound from a unit using them.

As a complete contrast, I've been able to get very satisfying sound out of ordinary, el cheapo DAC chips, but I've had to go to probably extraordinary lengths by most people's estimation to make it happen. There are multiple ways to get there, but none of them are cheap and/or easy at the moment ...

Frank

Edit: about msb's power supplies not being "perfect", they don't have to be, they just have to function well enough that the normal poor quality digital sound problems don't arise. If it was all so easy to solve, in every scenario, then we would all be enjoying superb digital sound right now ...

Last edited by fas42; 10th October 2012 at 07:27 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th October 2012, 08:14 AM   #28
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
The thing is, what complete DAC out there has been able to match it with that msb, in an subjective evaluation by the obsessive, or fussy, using the ESS chips? Now, I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the Sabre parts, in fact they look very impressive to me, but until someone uses them in an audio component that can go head to head with say, the msb then the case is not "proven", so to speak.

Which is my way of saying that there's a pretty nasty learning curve with digital; it's not trivial to extract good sound out of any particular chip. The msb people have taken a certain road, which is expensive to the end consumer, and perhaps down the track they may decide to go the ESS route, if someone else gets top notch sound from a unit using them.

As a complete contrast, I've been able to get very satisfying sound out of ordinary, el cheapo DAC chips, but I've had to go to probably extraordinary lengths by most people's estimation to make it happen. There are multiple ways to get there, but none of them are cheap and/or easy at the moment ...

Frank

Edit: about msb's power supplies not being "perfect", they don't have to be, they just have to function well enough that the normal poor quality digital sound problems don't arise. If it was all so easy to solve, in every scenario, then we would all be enjoying superb digital sound right now ...
I just gave you an example of the Weiss DAC202. Plus it's one sixth of the price of that msb !!

Regarding power supplies does msb sell on weight, performance or the number of enclosures ??
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th October 2012, 09:03 AM   #29
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor White View Post
So the ESS is only a 6 bit dac but measures significantly better than their 26 bit ladder dac !! What does that say about their dac ?? LOL
It says that their engineering skills suffer just as much as their marketing skills (they've been ridiculed all over the internet about their "6-bit" statements).

Perhaps, if they ask nicely and pay good money, Daniel Weiss and Samuel Groner could teach them a thing or twenty.

From the 202 measurements:
"The increase in bit depth drops the noise floor by an extraordinary 29dB, implying 21-bit resolution, which both readily allows the Weiss to decode a tone at –120dBFS (bottom pair of traces), and is the highest I have ever encountered. Wow!"

Oh, and the Weiss Medea+ is another "crappy 6bit" DAC from the same guys:

Design w Sound 2012 Weiss Medea+ Measurements

More expensive than the 202 but still sells for way less than that MSB joke.
__________________
"You have a hierarchy: a mathematician, a physicist (which is a failed mathematician), and an engineer (which is a failed physicist)." - Andrew Jones
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th October 2012, 09:04 AM   #30
fas42 is online now fas42  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
fas42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NSW, Australia
Blog Entries: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor White View Post
I just gave you an example of the Weiss DAC202. Plus it's one sixth of the price of that msb !!

Regarding power supplies does msb sell on weight, performance or the number of enclosures ??
HIFICRITIC, with Martin Colloms and others of the cream of the British hifi press, looked at the msb and Weiss DAC202 at the beginning of 2011, in the same issue. This magazine has a nice balance of the subjective, and objective measurements, and they acknowledge that the Weiss is ruler perfect in the numbers game. Yet, on a subjective marking scale the Weiss got 67, and the msb 200.

Some comments about the Weiss in the review: "tonality is not perfect", "hint of hardness in the midrange and a trace of grain in the treble", "fails to define leading edges as well as the best available", "not really the one for great dynamics and realistic rhythm and timing". These are the things that are important for audiophiles, so if you can point to subjective reviews that consider them to be on level pegging, please tell me ...

Frank
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The DAC "do you have experience with this dac", Best diy dac for the money? murphythecat8 Construction Tips 9 17th March 2014 07:30 AM
Schematic for Xiang Sheng Tube DAC Model "DAC-01A" wanted tiefbassuebertr Digital Line Level 9 29th September 2013 02:50 PM
Modern PC DAC vs "Audiophile DAC" TheLaw117 PC Based 140 17th September 2011 04:24 PM
Cheap "USB DAC" M-Audio Transit + Marantz CD60 lucpes Digital Source 10 11th February 2009 10:34 AM
m-audio "transit" usb 24/96 dac and digital i/o Mark Hathaway Digital Source 2 9th January 2005 05:13 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:34 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2