$43000 "hi-end" DAC vs $50 consumer audio dac ?

[PHEONIX]

From my POV, the key thing is that a hell of the seemingly minor, subtle, quality destroying issues seem to have been addressed, through one means or another, and that's really what this unit delivers. Yes, it shouldn't take that amount of money to get that quality of sound, but it serves as a proof of concept as to what digital should normally sound like ...

Frank

Hello Frank,

Could you clarify what you mean by seemingly minor, subtle quality destroying issues that seem to be addressed through one means or another.

[fas42]

Originally Posted by abraxalito

... I plan for my own design to deliver better IMD measurements and at least equal sound at a much lower price-point.

Easy, peasy, ... having been there many times, I know how staggeringly good digital sound can be, my belief is that there are almost no limits as to the level it can rise to ... just that, at the moment, it'll take the real pioneers to show the way, hopefully without having taken too many arrows ...

Frank

[fas42]

Originally Posted by PHEONIX

Could you clarify what you mean by seemingly minor, subtle quality destroying issues that seem to be addressed through one means or another.

Howdy, PHEONIX ... I've been banging on about this in online forums for a couple of years now, and all the fine detail is there in my many posts. abraxalito, and a few others "get it", and their efforts in moving things forward should be closely monitored.

Anyway, the guts of it is that a lack of attention to detail is a killer for digital sound, as in, the gap between overwhelmingly unpleasant sound, and a brilliant, incredibly realistic musical event, can be disturbingly small in terms of what has to be done to a system. Unlike much analogue sourced sound, digital demands precision in how it is decoded to sound "musical", which is why typically only very expensive, or very carefully tweaked systems achieve top notch results.

The people at msb have a very good understanding on the need to be fanatical in how they go about everything, and hence they achieve good results. The fact that they "cloak" their message with PR about 26 bits, or whatever, is just part of a sales pitch which is easy for a customer to grab onto ...

There is plenty of info here in diyAudio, in a number of threads, about the sort of things that can, and should be done: improving power supplies, RF shielding, grounding schemes, filtering poor mains power, static effects, there are a myriad of things to be addressed. And the big problem is, if just one thing, just one, is left undone or not done sufficiently well, then it brings the whole edifice to its knees ... and you end up with that typical grey, boring, harsh, dreary, lacking in "musicality", digital playback which makes many people run to their TTs and tape machines ...

Frank

[qusp]

no, its not a sales pitch, its LIES.

improving power supplies, RF shielding, grounding schemes, filtering poor mains power, static effects, there are a myriad of things to be addressed.

it seems all their efforts 2 box, fully shielded cans to house the dacs in, possibly potted. yet power supply noise still makes it through, past a level that can be attained wit a well designed LM317 reg? let alone a more involved design.

[wwenze]

"Don't try to make sense out of nonsense"

A phrase I usually apply to TV shows and books...

[Trevor White]

Originally Posted by fas42

The people at msb have a very good understanding on the need to be fanatical in how they go about everything, and hence they achieve good results. The fact that they "cloak" their message with PR about 26 bits, or whatever, is just part of a sales pitch which is easy for a customer to grab onto ...


Frank

but they got gazumped by a $50 "consumer grade" chip It seems that the folks at ESS have a better understanding of the problems involved and how to solve them without making the consumer payout 10's of thousands

[fas42]

Originally Posted by Trevor White

but they got gazumped by a $50 "consumer grade" chip It seems that the folks at ESS have a better understanding of the problems involved and how to solve them without making the consumer payout 10's of thousands

The thing is, what complete DAC out there has been able to match it with that msb, in an subjective evaluation by the obsessive, or fussy, using the ESS chips? Now, I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the Sabre parts, in fact they look very impressive to me, but until someone uses them in an audio component that can go head to head with say, the msb then the case is not "proven", so to speak.

Which is my way of saying that there's a pretty nasty learning curve with digital; it's not trivial to extract good sound out of any particular chip. The msb people have taken a certain road, which is expensive to the end consumer, and perhaps down the track they may decide to go the ESS route, if someone else gets top notch sound from a unit using them.

As a complete contrast, I've been able to get very satisfying sound out of ordinary, el cheapo DAC chips, but I've had to go to probably extraordinary lengths by most people's estimation to make it happen. There are multiple ways to get there, but none of them are cheap and/or easy at the moment ...

Frank

Edit: about msb's power supplies not being "perfect", they don't have to be, they just have to function well enough that the normal poor quality digital sound problems don't arise. If it was all so easy to solve, in every scenario, then we would all be enjoying superb digital sound right now ...

[Trevor White]

Originally Posted by fas42

The thing is, what complete DAC out there has been able to match it with that msb, in an subjective evaluation by the obsessive, or fussy, using the ESS chips? Now, I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the Sabre parts, in fact they look very impressive to me, but until someone uses them in an audio component that can go head to head with say, the msb then the case is not "proven", so to speak.

Which is my way of saying that there's a pretty nasty learning curve with digital; it's not trivial to extract good sound out of any particular chip. The msb people have taken a certain road, which is expensive to the end consumer, and perhaps down the track they may decide to go the ESS route, if someone else gets top notch sound from a unit using them.

As a complete contrast, I've been able to get very satisfying sound out of ordinary, el cheapo DAC chips, but I've had to go to probably extraordinary lengths by most people's estimation to make it happen. There are multiple ways to get there, but none of them are cheap and/or easy at the moment ...

Frank

Edit: about msb's power supplies not being "perfect", they don't have to be, they just have to function well enough that the normal poor quality digital sound problems don't arise. If it was all so easy to solve, in every scenario, then we would all be enjoying superb digital sound right now ...

I just gave you an example of the Weiss DAC202. Plus it's one sixth of the price of that msb !!

Regarding power supplies does msb sell on weight, performance or the number of enclosures ??

[TheShaman]

Originally Posted by Trevor White

So the ESS is only a 6 bit dac but measures significantly better than their 26 bit ladder dac !! What does that say about their dac ?? LOL

It says that their engineering skills suffer just as much as their marketing skills (they've been ridiculed all over the internet about their "6-bit" statements).

Perhaps, if they ask nicely and pay good money, Daniel Weiss and Samuel Groner could teach them a thing or twenty.

From the 202 measurements:
"The increase in bit depth drops the noise floor by an extraordinary 29dB, implying 21-bit resolution, which both readily allows the Weiss to decode a tone at –120dBFS (bottom pair of traces), and is the highest I have ever encountered. Wow!"

Oh, and the Weiss Medea+ is another "crappy 6bit" DAC from the same guys:

Design w Sound 2012 Weiss Medea+ Measurements

More expensive than the 202 but still sells for way less than that MSB joke.

[fas42]

Originally Posted by Trevor White

I just gave you an example of the Weiss DAC202. Plus it's one sixth of the price of that msb !!

Regarding power supplies does msb sell on weight, performance or the number of enclosures ??

HIFICRITIC, with Martin Colloms and others of the cream of the British hifi press, looked at the msb and Weiss DAC202 at the beginning of 2011, in the same issue. This magazine has a nice balance of the subjective, and objective measurements, and they acknowledge that the Weiss is ruler perfect in the numbers game. Yet, on a subjective marking scale the Weiss got 67, and the msb 200.

Some comments about the Weiss in the review: "tonality is not perfect", "hint of hardness in the midrange and a trace of grain in the treble", "fails to define leading edges as well as the best available", "not really the one for great dynamics and realistic rhythm and timing". These are the things that are important for audiophiles, so if you can point to subjective reviews that consider them to be on level pegging, please tell me ...

Frank