$43000 "hi-end" DAC vs $50 consumer audio dac ?

[abraxalito]

The intermodulation results in the Stereophile measurements report speak volumes about their 'true 26 (but somewhere it says there are 4 such DACs inside which mean its actually 27) bit DAC'. Their digital filter no.3 is a complete joke, but beyond that even with a proper filter the intermod performance sucks big-time for such a high priced DAC.

[overtheairbroadcast]

Originally Posted by Trevor White

I've saved a lot of money over the years by informing myself before I make a purchase. My first point of call is the internet. Hopefully someone already owns what I am interested in buying and their feedback whether it be positive or negative goes to some length in helping me make a decision before I do my money.

Surely you're not going to tell me that you are going to get an unbiased and objective opinion from a vendor or salesmen ?? Good luck if you believe that.

Honestly, the dudes flogging this gear would give PT Barnum a run for his money !!

See that is the great thing right there, I never said I would or wouldn't get information, opinions, and reviews from others. I said something about smart people, something about the right to be informed, something about free markets, and something about people still being ignorant in the face of facts and lies (okay, not exactly in those words, but I hope you know what I mean).

At $43,000, I personally would tend to be more careful if it is something that I can fit into a backpack. Without the reviews, I probably wouldn't because I don't believe I would be that gullible and/or profligate (my threshold on spending on a DAC is a lower). But with that said, there are others who don't care about the opinions, facts, or reviews -- they got money to burn and you can't argue with that.

I just like the free market economy and if someone wants to spend money on a $43,000 piece of audio jewelry... well they want to spend $43,000.

Phineas Taylor Barnum, wanted to get rich and by most accounts he did get rich -- he was the king of the circus. People beat down his door to get in on the action of mermaids, bearded ladies, and other oddities of nature. Mermaids don't exist and you can tell everyone, but people will still pay up to see and experience it. PT was also a philanthropist, I've been to Tufts and I got to say, not bad for a University.

[abraxalito]

Originally Posted by overtheairbroadcast

Personally, I am just glad that there is a choice out there (and I wish I were the one selling this DAC to them).

+1 for the choice but seriously you could hold up your head in public with such poor measurements at the price?

[overtheairbroadcast]

Originally Posted by abraxalito

+1 for the choice but seriously you could hold up your head in public with such poor measurements at the price?

w.r.t. to the holding my head up in public, measurements, price... with my conscience, most likely not (I could not make it as an evangelist, politician, or lawyer).

However, I would like to give it a try but with either a reasonable price (with equally reasonable and logical markup) or better output (to justify the price it had better have some gold and platinum in it), just to see because everyone has start somewhere.

[fas42]

In the conclusion of the Stereophile review ...

The MSB stack gave me the best digital sound I've ever heard in my system. I know it's a cliché, but I was digging out music from all corners of my collection, just to hear it "real" before the MSBs had to go back. The best recordings were a sheer pleasure to listen to. I spent many long nights going from track to track, feeling closer to the truth of each recording than I had previously imagined possible.

...



The Diamond DAC IV runs hot and it costs a lot, but I'm unashamedly enthusiastic for products from companies like MSB, which push what technology can do in the service of beautiful music, which in turn makes life that much more worth living.

That's what the $43,000 delivers ... so is the buyer going to be the slightest bit concerned about the minor lapses in some measurements? From my POV, the key thing is that a hell of the seemingly minor, subtle, quality destroying issues seem to have been addressed, through one means or another, and that's really what this unit delivers. Yes, it shouldn't take that amount of money to get that quality of sound, but it serves as a proof of concept as to what digital should normally sound like ...

Frank

[OnAudio]

Aaaah measurements versus the ear

They can only teach you so much in school, there is only time enough in school to teach measurements only, then they release the engineers armed with their scopes . There is only so much that can be packed in a college course text book that is why in times past there were apprenticeships so that the professional could pass on the secrets of the trade to his chosen one or ones

[abraxalito]

Originally Posted by fas42

That's what the $43,000 delivers ... so is the buyer going to be the slightest bit concerned about the minor lapses in some measurements?

Obviously not or they'd not be the buyer But I reckon a few potential buyers would be put off (I'm not a potential buyer myself). If I were in the market for this DAC I'd also be put off that there's not really very much clear water in the subjective review between this DAC and the (over 20dB cheaper) Ayre QB9.

From my POV, the key thing is that a hell of the seemingly minor, subtle, quality destroying issues seem to have been addressed, through one means or another, and that's really what this unit delivers. Yes, it shouldn't take that amount of money to get that quality of sound, but it serves as a proof of concept as to what digital should normally sound like ...

Yep, agreed. I plan for my own design to deliver better IMD measurements and at least equal sound at a much lower price-point. A guy's gotta dream right?

[Trevor White]

Originally Posted by OnAudio

Aaaah measurements versus the ear

They can only teach you so much in school, there is only time enough in school to teach measurements only, then they release the engineers armed with their scopes . There is only so much that can be packed in a college course text book that is why in times past there were apprenticeships so that the professional could pass on the secrets of the trade to his chosen one or ones

That is nonsense.

The problem is the claims made by msb are of a technical nature and how they relate to sound quality. The issue is the technical claims don't stack up against the measured performance and therefore can't be as good as what they make them out to be.

For example their $10K Femto clock upgrade included in the review is supposed to reduce jitter (an engineering spec that can be measured) more than anyone else's clock and yet the $50 consumer grade sabre dac in the Weiss runs rings around them in terms of measured performance. According to msb's own words this should translate into better sound quality because reduced jitter is better isn't it

[qusp]

forget the subjective vs objective waffle, never gets anywhere; but if someone is going to sell a 43K dac and call it the Elite Super Platinum Reference shiny 'True 26bit DAC', it just better deliver 26bits… which it clearly doesnt, along with some worrying other IMD effects, weird digital filter choices and spurious PSU noise. Seriously a less than perfectly clean PSU on a completely separate 2 box 43K dac is beyond stupid.

[qusp]

I totally agree Trevor, subjective truth is one thing, cant argue, its when these companies try to stake their superiority on plainly false and easily tested technical grounds that that whole argument falls flat on its truffle-stuffed ****