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Old 10th April 2012, 08:39 AM   #261
Telstar is offline Telstar  Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic_real_one View Post
You know that for a fact or is just another mith?
It can be measured comparing the source bits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic_real_one View Post
I guess I have to agree that some don't care about the real details in music and like better to hear the artificial colorations and products of the unfiltered NOS.
I am sorry for you, because the REAL details are lost with sigma-delta conversion, replaced by FAKE details uncorrect in time/phase. Those "artificial colorations" are harmonics that were present in the original recording.

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Originally Posted by qusp View Post
i'm still interested in hearing the dac, just to see what the fuss is about, but if I owned one i'd be upsampling externally
I also would But I still wouldnt use a reconstruction filter.
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Old 10th April 2012, 09:02 AM   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic_real_one View Post
But as you notice, without interpolation and oversampling, the original "16 bit" are worthless at high frequency (closer of 1/2 SR).
This is utter nonsense. Just because a particular sinewave doesn't use all the levels in the picture it doesn't mean they don't all get used. If the frequency is a (phase locked) sub-multiple of the sample rate then they won't - but that's almost infinitely unlikely in practice. In the general case there's no hope of phase locking the input frequency to the sample rate clock.

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At 1/4SR you have actually only 8 levels there because of large sampling time - that is only a 3 bit resolution.
No you don't in practice and no, its not only 3bit resolution. In any case if you fed it through a reconstruction filter how could that possibly change which DAC levels were used?
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Old 10th April 2012, 10:09 AM   #263
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telstar View Post
It can be measured comparing the source bits.



I am sorry for you, because the REAL details are lost with sigma-delta conversion, replaced by FAKE details uncorrect in time/phase. Those "artificial colorations" are harmonics that were present in the original recording.

which is already oversampled, dont be sorry for me, i'm completely happy having an excellent performing dac that also sounds excellent. see this is that psuedo science i'm talking about, interested to test your discerning hearing to tell the fake details (your words, I wouldnt use them) from the real ones. phase distortion can quite easily be measured in the actual output of dacs using an analyser, you are saying these fake details passed through these tests? fake ninja stealth details perhaps? is DS perfect? nope, but I would and did take it over NOS dacs I tried. I think its a little bit funny to taolk of fake or real details, any sampling method is just the result of snapshots taken in time and no ADC or dac captures actual real details.

i'm not stuck on DS, just the dacs I prefer from what ive tried are DS, i'll get around to building up a multibit dac or 2 one of these days, but more for curiosity than anything else as i'm completely happy with the dac section of my rig and have moved onto other areas.


Quote:
I also would But I still wouldnt use a reconstruction filter.
good for you!!

probably the next thing I play with will do away with the dac altogether using DSD over USB with a high performance analogue filter directly into an amp

Last edited by qusp; 10th April 2012 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 10th April 2012, 10:23 AM   #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post
....... i'm completely happy having an excellent performing dac that also sounds excellent.......

......i'm not stuck on DS, just the dacs I prefer from what ive tried are DS, i'll get around to building up a multibit dac or 2 one of these days, but more for curiosity than anything else as i'm completely happy with the dac section of my rig and have moved onto other areas......
When you are so completely happy, why invest your time here , as you have moved onto other areas as well??
Maybe there is still some curiosity, but at the same time fear of loosing some of your "certainties"??
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Old 10th April 2012, 12:33 PM   #265
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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what? since when does being completely happy with your setup mean you stop thinking and investigating? I dont know any diyers that get in deep; that sit back and rest....

maybe you, not me

why is it you feel the need to interupt threads like the wire? truly are you in this much denial?

i've just drawn a line under the dac section and moved on to other areas or I would never get the whole system finished, ive spent enough time and money on exploration of the conversion section already and the scope doesnt include anything but curiosity in this unit and how it gets the reviews when there are clearly a number of shortcomings to go along with some benefits (in the objective sense). I said very clearly on the first pages of this thread that I wasnt interested in buying this dac and why, why; other than being a troll do you feel the need to act confused when I say this now?

also if you truly want to keep the thread on topic, why would you provoke more discourse?

I simply addressed a post directly quoting me, you, you are just arguing because thats what you do

Last edited by qusp; 10th April 2012 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 10th April 2012, 12:47 PM   #266
Telstar is offline Telstar  Italy
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Originally Posted by qusp View Post
I simply addressed a post directly quoting me, you, you are just arguing because thats what you do
I was replying to Sonic, and I quoted you only in the last sentence. anyway it doesnt seem that you are much open, just checking to feel sure that your choice was the best one.

I have heard a few ESS9018 dacs and it is not the best sound that you can get from digital (and I'm not saying either that the Metrum is).
Anyway, as long as you are happy with your sound, far from me pushing you in another direction.
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Old 10th April 2012, 02:59 PM   #267
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I tried AD1865 NOS and it was not that impressive. Looks like the anti SD cult has their pitchforks out though.
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Old 10th April 2012, 03:17 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post
what? since when does being completely happy with your setup mean you stop thinking and investigating? I dont know any diyers that get in deep; that sit back and rest....

maybe you, not me

why is it you feel the need to interupt threads like the wire? truly are you in this much denial?

i've just drawn a line under the dac section and moved on to other areas or I would never get the whole system finished, ive spent enough time and money on exploration of the conversion section already and the scope doesnt include anything but curiosity in this unit and how it gets the reviews when there are clearly a number of shortcomings to go along with some benefits (in the objective sense). I said very clearly on the first pages of this thread that I wasnt interested in buying this dac and why, why; other than being a troll do you feel the need to act confused when I say this now?

also if you truly want to keep the thread on topic, why would you provoke more discourse?

I simply addressed a post directly quoting me, you, you are just arguing because thats what you do
Being happy with some sort of setup does not mean to stop thinking and investigating, I agree.
In the case of the Metrum dac, for the moment, I am completely satisfied; so much that I don't consider building / buying some dac kit and tweak it with I/V stages, power supplies, analog output stages and what more for quite some time to come. I've done this extensively, and I realize that there is nothing to gain in sound quality compared with the Metrum (and after all for me sound quality is the decisive factor, albeit I know and respect that DIY has much appeal and can be a goal in itself).

I did not interrupt the Wire thread. As mentioned before I was there because I am (still) looking for a solid state amplifier to drive my open baffle woofers; I even initially ordered boards and parts. My last posts there were on my doubts concerning SMPS's being superior to linear power supplies (not much activity on that SMPS-WireAmp front by the way....).

Who actually is arguing?
I am surprised that the Metrum, being a NOS dac, sounds that good, and I am interested to know what measurements are relevant to support this, what measurements are not relevant, in other words to get a bit more insight in the discrepancy of traditional measurements and perceived sound quality.
Members like you and SoNic keep on arguing and arguing; actually in the meantime I am more interested in the psycho-social factors which are behind this weird behavior than in the content of your posts (but I said that before..).
And oh, when you think I am a troll, you better report my post(s) to the moderators, huh? Trolling is against forum rules, so they will decide right?

Last edited by pieter t; 10th April 2012 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 10th April 2012, 03:55 PM   #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post
...see this is that psuedo science i'm talking about, interested to test your discerning hearing to tell the fake details (your words, I wouldnt use them) from the real ones. phase distortion can quite easily be measured in the actual output of dacs using an analyser, you are saying these fake details passed through these tests? fake ninja stealth details perhaps?
I'm still interested to read your answer to the question I asked you earlier. Did I miss your reponse? I'll repeat it here:

"Let me ask you a question, if the information encoded on a CD is time-domain sensitive (i.e., music), does the digital sinc filter's time-domain response ("ringing") distort that information? Be careful in your answer, recall that you've already said that the system having the higher distortion is definitionally, the more colored."

To be clear, I'm asking specifically about DAC impulse response. This question is distinct from that of DAC phase response. All linear phase FIR interpolation filters feature, guess what, linear phase, even though their time-domain (impulse) responses can vary dramatically. The now common practice of including a linear phase digital filter with fast and slow transistion band options, such in the T.I. PCM179x series DACs, exemplify that fact.
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Last edited by Ken Newton; 10th April 2012 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 10th April 2012, 04:02 PM   #270
bbggg is offline bbggg  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telstar View Post
Those "artificial colorations" are harmonics that were present in the original recording
If something was present in the original recording, how can it be artificial? In English this is a non sequitur. In Latin as well.
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