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Old 3rd April 2012, 02:17 AM   #151
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jitter View Post
I noticed the blobs too, looks like handiwork to me and not like it's been reflowed.
Perhaps the pics are of a prototype or a small pre-production series.

Unless the pic on his website under "Background information->Manufacturing and testing the mini dac" is just for show, it looks like a professional environment. The ESD mat on the table and the white coat are some of the signs. The mention of an "anti static zone" (we'd call it ESD Protected Area) also doesn't hint at it being made in a shed. Don't think they're using an Audio Precision, though...
yeah, even though i'm not convinced of the topology/methodology of the dac, i'm not suggesting he's less than professional at what he does best, but lets just say that isnt hand soldering. Prototype or not I sure wouldnt be letting that be the only really high quality photograph of the innards; any number of hobbyists here including myself and probably even some school kids these days can do much better and it was the first thing that struck my eye.

Last edited by qusp; 3rd April 2012 at 02:20 AM.
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Old 3rd April 2012, 03:31 AM   #152
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"Testing" picture -> That wall on back looks like a residential basement. And the internal PCI card used for testing doesn't look that "professional" to me.
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Old 3rd April 2012, 05:57 AM   #153
jitter is offline jitter  Netherlands
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I completely agree with 5th element's reasoning behind the incredibly subjective nature of human beings and the way that affects the way individuals all hear their own way. I also completely agree with the fact that knowing certain details before even hearing an audio device will lead to a highly biased choice in the end. No doubt my perception of the sound of the Octave was influenced by my opinions towards NOS.

Really, the only objective way to choosing the right piece of equipment subjectively is to do a double blind test of "black boxes". I.e. not knowing brand/type, technologies used, or even the number of contenders that are auditioned. This way there's only the sound to focus on, in the end it's the sound that matters.
I expect that, except for a handful of exceptionally adept people, this way most will actually get the number of auditioned devices wrong.
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Old 3rd April 2012, 05:42 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by SoNic_real_one View Post
But how do you feel when you are called deaf because you don't appreciate their non-filtered DAC? Especially when you don't talk of 0.000x% difference but more like 5%.
Not so mich deaf as dumb.
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Old 3rd April 2012, 06:04 PM   #155
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Ken Newton, SoNic_real_one,

Pennsylvania and Virginia are neighboring states right?
Why don't you guys plan to play a round of golf together, try to get on speaking terms, and change your tone here into something more friendly.
Isn't (DIY) audio something to please about in stead of something to fight about??
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Old 3rd April 2012, 06:23 PM   #156
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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you want to put these 2 together in a semi deserted landscape with bags full of golf clubs?
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Old 3rd April 2012, 06:25 PM   #157
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Pennsylvania and Virginia are neighboring states right?
Nope, Maryland is in between.
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Old 3rd April 2012, 06:35 PM   #158
jitter is offline jitter  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic_real_one View Post
The FACT is that 16 bit 44.1kHz NOS filterless is horrible.
CD reproduction was never ment to be NOS. Using a 24 bit 192kHz signal is equal to a very good 4x OS applied to the CD (better than what a DAC can OS from 44.1). And as you could see, at that sample rate, the filtering requirements are way lessend.
CD never ment to be NOS? I'm not sure. If it had been up to Philips, the CD standard would have been 14 bit, and they designed their first DAC for that (TDA1540). Along came Sony and pushed for 16 bit.
The TDA1540 was already in production and a true 16 bit DAC wouldn't be ready in time for the launch of the CD-player in 1982.
Philips' engineers came up with a digital filter that combined 4x OS with a digital feedback loop that we would now call noise shaping to get 16 bits resolution from a 14 bit DAC. Later came the famous 16 bit TDA1541, but the idea of low bit conversion with 16 bit resolution (Bitstream) had already been born out of necessity.

I wonder if, without this change to 16 bit, the first DACs wouldn't simply have been NOS with an analogue brick wall filter.

Quote:
PS: I don't know if you have the capability (good ADC) to make some measurements on your new NOS filterless (is that true filterless?) DAC and post them here - I would definitelly trust them more than a typed poem.
Well, I have a 16 MHz PC oscilloscope with FFT, so I should be able to do some measurements.

The article that first got me interested in NOS, many years ago, is here. It's a bit strange to read it as it seems to be made up of some glued together parts from a bigger whole, but the relevant parts are there.

Last edited by jitter; 3rd April 2012 at 07:03 PM.
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Old 3rd April 2012, 06:53 PM   #159
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nope, thats note going to be good enough really, but will still be interesting. the ADC in that is likely to limit the measurements..or maybe not..ha

good enough for some amps and definitely speakers, but it sure shouldnt be good enough for todays DACs
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Old 3rd April 2012, 08:13 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by jitter View Post
CD never ment to be NOS? I'm not sure. If it had been up to Philips, the CD standard would have been 14bit...
Not to mention that CD also was supposed to be perfect sound forever. Remember that particular bit of nonsense?

Quote:
The article that first got me interested in NOS, many years ago, is here. It's a bit strange to read it as it seems to be made up of some glued together parts from a bigger whole, but the relevant parts are there.
Trust your own ears. No one listens to music through a spectrum analyzer. Which is to be preferred, a DAC which measures good on spectrum analyzer, yet fatigues your ears or disinterests you in your music collection (the ultimate sin for a HiFi system), or a DAC which doesn't measure as well, yet is a joy to listen to every day? The NOS DAC issues really is that simple, IMO. Continue to point out that you can see that the brickwall filtered CD emperor has no clothes.
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Last edited by Ken Newton; 3rd April 2012 at 08:20 PM.
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