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Old 7th October 2013, 09:19 PM   #191
Coris is offline Coris  Norway
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It is definitely the large decoupling capacities with increase quite dramatic the analogue/sonic performances of the ES9018 DAC chip.

In the last time I have increased the AVCC decoupling on both side of the chip from 800F/side to 4200F/side. The lowest level of the low end frequencies of the sounds are not only good hearable now, but it can be good feel it actually. In the same time the increasing of the resolution and details in sounds in the high end of the audio spectre, is also remarkable. The dynamics of the sound is also much improved. This is quite a special experience at last...
I have used this time quite common, but low ESR aluminium caps soldered directly to the chip pins. Low noise voltage regulator for AVCC, at 3,8V. The DAC is running by a 108Mhz clock. This clock frequency is lower than I have used before. The reason is that this frequency is divided further for another functions, but not because the 125Mhz which I have used earlier it were not a well working frequency. I`m actually excited to try again 125Mhz in this quite large decoupling setup...
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Old 7th October 2013, 11:28 PM   #192
Bunpei is offline Bunpei  Japan
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May I ask you the following points?

1. How many times you have ever turned the power of the system on/off ever?
2. Have you observed a voltage change profile at an AVCC pin of the DAC chip by an oscilloscope at timings of power on/off?
3. What measures have you taken in order to discharge the cap after power off and to mitigate a possible high rush current at power on?
4. What kind of regulator do you use and how is the capacitance value of decoupling capacitors placed at the input side of the regulator?
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Old 8th October 2013, 08:25 AM   #193
Coris is offline Coris  Norway
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Hi Bunpei

Thanks for following yet this thread.

I just turned on/off many times my system to make some pictures of the AVCC. You may see the snapshots her... There is another picture with the measured environment (it may not looks very nice, but is an experimenting area...) So, the nr. 2 question is answered...
The question nr. 3 is partial answered too. The high rush current at power on is fixed by the regulator current protection.
The regulator is LT1763, and the filtering caps before this regulator are of teens of mF.

Of course if is about using even larger capacities on this AVCC, one may take some special steps to take care of possible issues you may thinking about when asking the questions above.
Else you are welcome with another questions too... Or maybe give it a try to this idea...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg AVCClarge CAP.jpg (433.7 KB, 325 views)
File Type: jpg dac.jpg (665.0 KB, 322 views)

Last edited by Coris; 8th October 2013 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 8th October 2013, 10:25 AM   #194
Coris is offline Coris  Norway
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BTW, there is only one AVCC regulator, so it sees 8400 F on its output in this setup...
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Old 8th October 2013, 11:06 PM   #195
Bunpei is offline Bunpei  Japan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coris View Post
... The regulator is LT1763, and the filtering caps before this regulator are of teens of mF. ...
Hi, Coris!

I much appreciated your very detailed answers!

Would you tell me just one point for clarification?
Does the expression "teens of mF" mean,for example, "15,000 micro F"?

Bunpei
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Old 9th October 2013, 06:34 AM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coris View Post
BTW, there is only one AVCC regulator, so it sees 8400 F on its output in this setup...
The funny part are that by stepping up the PSU you will get improved fidelity and it have virtually no end..

When I simulated PSUs in the 80s and 90s there was no limits, but for every time you increase the capacitors like the ones in your AVCC circuit it just attenuates the noise spectrum down to a lower frequency.

After a lot of simulations and practical testing and measuring I decided on a goal of 0.008Hz for the PSUs. Not because it is the optimal or limit, but because it was possible to implement practically and I did not want to waste more time on this subject.

If it runs 10mA in your 3.8V AVCC circuit then my "rules" would require 52.000uF. 100mA and then 520.000uF. If you use 0.08Hz (0.1Hz) as a goal then 5.200uF and 52.000uF.

As the ES9018 chips uses an 0.1Hz filter constant regarding jitter rejection then the PSUs should optimally be clean down to a factor below 0.1Hz to not compromise the jitter removal circuits...
You have two 1.2V and one 3.3V DVCC voltages that need to be improved for optimum performance of your DAC as the digital filtering and jitter removal circuits are found here.
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Old 9th October 2013, 09:41 AM   #197
Coris is offline Coris  Norway
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Much appreciated your details RayCtech

It make sense to me your experiments and conclusions. I would like to go further with increasing the AVCC, but lack of informations in this area make me to be more carefully. I think I will take the risk one day... I will for sure experiment more in this.

Is quite difficult to describe with words how the sound sounds with these large capacities. The fidelity is amazing. I can well hear details, I have never been aware about in records I played. I just wonder how my speakers (not very special ones) can reproduce such details... Is quite fascinating... It looks to me that this DAC chip is so elaborate that even its designers themselves were/are not really aware about what actually it can do...

Last edited by Coris; 9th October 2013 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 9th October 2013, 09:43 AM   #198
Coris is offline Coris  Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunpei View Post
Hi, Coris!

I much appreciated your very detailed answers!

Would you tell me just one point for clarification?
Does the expression "teens of mF" mean,for example, "15,000 micro F"?

Bunpei

You welcome.
As total is about more than 30 000F...
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Old 9th October 2013, 07:39 PM   #199
Coris is offline Coris  Norway
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Today I have got some better caps (Nichicon oscon, 12mOhm ESR), and smaller as physical dimension.
Now I have 6200 on each side of the chip (AVCC). So 12400 as total on the same regulator.
There is an even higher improvement, but more sophisticated as result. I can say that are few sides of the improvements in sound quality. On one side is a very high fydelity. This was increasing as the decoupling capacities were increased. So RayCtech may have right at the improvements are more an more as the decoupling capacity increase on AVCC.
Another aspect of the improvement is the sound stage. Here is about definition/resolution of the components sound (instruments) in the sound stage. With my earlier caps, I was not very satisfied with how the perception of the sound stage components it were distributed. I could hear very clear that the sounds came out from the speakers on sides, and (were the recording was a higher quality), few positions in the centre of the stage. The Nichicon oscon caps I have mounted today have changed quite much the things (stages components). More distinct positions, and more "sources" of sounds from the different components of the sound stage. A better distribution (accordingly to the original positions of the instruments at recording) between the two channels/speakers.
It could be interesting that observations/tests are made after every components change. But who have so much patience for so analytic testing?
Now, at last I can not say very precise where it may come from the improvements in my experiments with these large decoupling capacities. It may be because I have used at last better quality caps, or because the even bigger capacities. Or it may be both...
Anyway, I may say that is very special to experience such high fidelity. Even more interesting is that one can find/hear fidelity increasing at quite banal (mid quality) recordings. I have some such recordings which it were streamed over internet as mp3 files, 256Kbps 44,1Khz, and so. After a quite simple treatment (upsampling on 64bit, converted to FLAC) I can notice quality/fidelity increasing for such files played out through improved ES9018 hardware. My understanding /conclusion is that very much of the quality audio informations still be inside these heavy compressed files, or are not lost at all. The only one it need is a device which it can bring out with extreme fidelity all or as much as possible of the recorded informations.
At last this it is really what we (many of us) are doing experimenting in this field: bring it back as much as possible of the informations stored inside these audio files.

Last edited by Coris; 9th October 2013 at 07:44 PM.
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