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Old 13th November 2011, 01:41 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicMac View Post
@ Bunpei
Good work! What are the diy linear AVCC regs you are using?
Yes, yes !!! Schematics please ! Are these LTxxx of some sort ? And what do you feed them with? Linear series regulator ?
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Old 13th November 2011, 07:40 AM   #112
Coris is offline Coris  Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazybutt View Post
Yes, yes !!! Schematics please ! Are these LTxxx of some sort ? And what do you feed them with? Linear series regulator ?
I think is not so difficult to find schematics and all the informations in the datasheet of a those chip regulators. There are many low and ultra low noise regulators out there. Mainly there is here about linear serial regulators and large capacities bypassing/decoupling for ESS9018 AVCC pins (and maybe for the rest too).

Last edited by Coris; 13th November 2011 at 07:42 AM.
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Old 13th November 2011, 11:48 AM   #113
Bunpei is offline Bunpei  Japan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coris View Post
It was a special reason to use so high tension caps, or it was just by chance you had those nearby?
I think I will get it a try to your configuration, but with some much smaller film caps...
The reason why the Sanyo OS-CON 1500 microF is there is just by a chance. Before trying the CDE film capacitor, I had tried the OS-CON without any deep consideration. Just under "Just try it!" policy. I added CDE FCs to there because it was not easy to remove the OS-CON. I will remove the OS-CON soon. The contribution of CDE FCs was far larger.

When you try the CDE film capacitor, please remember the 100 microF 800V model is the only choice. My friend measured a phase parameter of various models of the same type of capacitors manufactured by CDE and found the model ( pink line in the following plot) only keeps ideal frequency independent 90 degree (theoretical) value.
(Other plots, blue and yellow show values for other electrolytic capacitors.)
Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 13th November 2011, 12:01 PM   #114
Bunpei is offline Bunpei  Japan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coris View Post
I think is not so difficult to find schematics and all the informations in the datasheet of a those chip regulators. There are many low and ultra low noise regulators out there. Mainly there is here about linear serial regulators and large capacities bypassing/decoupling for ESS9018 AVCC pins (and maybe for the rest too).
Coris' speculation is correct.
I wanted to use LT1763 that Buffalo II employed because the liner regulator chip has a very low noise profile. However, Toshiba TAR5SB regulator which is almost compatible with LT1763 was easily available with very reasonable price in parts shop in Tokyo. I just used it without any special modification to its reference schematic.

http://www.toshiba.com/taec/componen...c/376/5642.pdf

Last edited by Bunpei; 13th November 2011 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 13th November 2011, 04:19 PM   #115
Coris is offline Coris  Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunpei View Post
The reason why the Sanyo OS-CON 1500 microF is there is just by a chance. Before trying the CDE film capacitor, I had tried the OS-CON without any deep consideration. Just under "Just try it!" policy. I added CDE FCs to there because it was not easy to remove the OS-CON. I will remove the OS-CON soon. The contribution of CDE FCs was far larger.

When you try the CDE film capacitor, please remember the 100 microF 800V model is the only choice. My friend measured a phase parameter of various models of the same type of capacitors manufactured by CDE and found the model ( pink line in the following plot) only keeps ideal frequency independent 90 degree (theoretical) value.
(Other plots, blue and yellow show values for other electrolytic capacitors.)
Click the image to open in full size.
Thanks for your explanations. Very interesting indeed, about that measurement!
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Old 13th November 2011, 09:08 PM   #116
Coris is offline Coris  Norway
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Bunpei, can you please describe with a little bit more details, what one see in that plot? It is about dB on Y axis? It seems to be a quite big difference between those measured caps in your plot... And I wonder how/why...
I wonder too, how it could shows this phase measurements in case of a ceramic cap?
I see that your mounted the OSCON on the output of the regulators, and not right on the ESS9018 AVCC pins. Your film caps are placed in same way as OSCON (on the regulators output)?
I personally think that is quite important to have very short connections from bypass caps and the target chip, and those caps be coupled right on the respective pins (or as close as possible). But I understand that when is to use so big caps is quite difficult to succeed in this "rule".
Did you tried with all 4 your film caps?
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Old 13th November 2011, 09:59 PM   #117
jcarr is offline jcarr  United States
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Coris: On the graph that Bunpei posted, vertical angle is phase (shift).
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Old 14th November 2011, 07:48 AM   #118
Coris is offline Coris  Norway
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Referring to Bunpei measurements graph.
I can understand that the film caps you`ve used exhibit very good phase parameters. In my opinion this about phase quality of a cap is not so important when using it as decoupling/bypassing. If one should use this caps in coupling between stages and have signal through it, then the phase parameters become important.
This type cap you used in decoupling ESS9018 it seems to be a very good one for coupling. As bypass cap, I think that another parameters could be more important: ESR, ESI (equivalent impedance), impedance of the terminals, and so on.

Could be interesting to find out why Bunpei got very good sound result using this type cap. In his opinion it is about phase good figures. I just wonder how another parameters of this type film cap can looks like and how are those parameters involved in decoupling ESS9018. I can see that this type film con has also a very good ESR figure (under 1 mohm)...
Nice to hear about Bunpei opinion about all this...

Last edited by Coris; 14th November 2011 at 07:50 AM.
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Old 14th November 2011, 10:21 AM   #119
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I must say that the angle seems a bit fishy to me as it is too flat even up to 100 kHz. Such a huge capacitor often have a considerable inductance or maybe they are cross wound?

Is the angle not just the same as the dissipation factor? It seems so.

tan δ = DF = 1/Q = ESR / XC


Where:
δ = loss angle (Greek letter delta)
DF = dissipation factor
Q = quality factor
ESR = equivalent series resistance
Xc = reactance of the capacitor in ohms



/S

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunpei View Post
The reason why the Sanyo OS-CON 1500 microF is there is just by a chance. Before trying the CDE film capacitor, I had tried the OS-CON without any deep consideration. Just under "Just try it!" policy. I added CDE FCs to there because it was not easy to remove the OS-CON. I will remove the OS-CON soon. The contribution of CDE FCs was far larger.

When you try the CDE film capacitor, please remember the 100 microF 800V model is the only choice. My friend measured a phase parameter of various models of the same type of capacitors manufactured by CDE and found the model ( pink line in the following plot) only keeps ideal frequency independent 90 degree (theoretical) value.
(Other plots, blue and yellow show values for other electrolytic capacitors.)
Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 14th November 2011, 11:18 AM   #120
Coris is offline Coris  Norway
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[QUOTE=staccatiss;2780976]I must say that the angle seems a bit fishy to me as it is too flat even up to 100 kHz. Such a huge capacitor often have a considerable inductance or maybe they are cross wound?




I think the same about quite big inductance at those physically big caps. The inductance come too from the enough long wires to connect it to the circuit... But ESR is very good specially at this type Bunpei used.
I personally suppose that the big improving in sound quality in decoupling ESS9018 in this way it come from the capacitate itself as from the very good ESR of this cap. The loss in a high voltage rated film cap is also very low too.
But Bunpei says that he tried with another caps and the best result was only with those big ones...
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