Hi Nic
It may well just be luck!
These issues are very capricious. I have two SPDIF inputs on my DAC (manually switched). On goes to my CD "transport", the other to a TV cable box with digital output. Switch to CD, no problems. Switch to cable box- buzz. So the latter's the issue? No- just connecting the (double screened) digital interconnect to the DAC causes the buzzing. The interconnect?- no any other behaves the same. Input wiring- no, same buzz with interconnect, with or without cable box connection, when connected to input OK with CD. And CD works fine on the other input too!
Screening is not a panacea either, especially with the floating circuitry. Many people talk of draining interference to mains ground, and even install supposedly low inductance wiring to a stake in the ground! No chance. Most mains filters have choke in the earth feed to prevent rf getting into the equipment from the mains! Your inter-board connections should, IMO, be unshielded tightly twisted pairs.
I'm quite possibly wrong about all this, and I'm only trying to help, as at least two other people have had problems. Nor am I criticising Buffalo or SEN- both are rock solid on their own. If anybody has any constructive thoughts, I’d be glad to hear them
Paul
It may well just be luck!
These issues are very capricious. I have two SPDIF inputs on my DAC (manually switched). On goes to my CD "transport", the other to a TV cable box with digital output. Switch to CD, no problems. Switch to cable box- buzz. So the latter's the issue? No- just connecting the (double screened) digital interconnect to the DAC causes the buzzing. The interconnect?- no any other behaves the same. Input wiring- no, same buzz with interconnect, with or without cable box connection, when connected to input OK with CD. And CD works fine on the other input too!
Screening is not a panacea either, especially with the floating circuitry. Many people talk of draining interference to mains ground, and even install supposedly low inductance wiring to a stake in the ground! No chance. Most mains filters have choke in the earth feed to prevent rf getting into the equipment from the mains! Your inter-board connections should, IMO, be unshielded tightly twisted pairs.
I'm quite possibly wrong about all this, and I'm only trying to help, as at least two other people have had problems. Nor am I criticising Buffalo or SEN- both are rock solid on their own. If anybody has any constructive thoughts, I’d be glad to hear them
Paul
Good luck is out of the question - I am a scientist! Fortuity would be a more acceptable term
I know you want o help and so do I. Did you try to power the buffalo of batteries to get it off the grid entirely?
In my (limited) experience most of these "mysterious" problems are caused by grounding issues.
I know you want o help and so do I. Did you try to power the buffalo of batteries to get it off the grid entirely?
In my (limited) experience most of these "mysterious" problems are caused by grounding issues.
> I agree that optimally short, perpendicular connections between the stacked boards would be better than my present arrangement
That I do not agree.
You should remember that the output to the IV circuit is a current and not voltage.
Current cannot go anywhere unless there is a conductor.
On top of that a twisted pair is quite resistant to noise pick up.
So I do not expect a few cm of wiring in between to be an issue.
As the power supply to the SEN is floating, it is susceptible to RF pickup.
You can try to cover each channel of the SEN with a grounded Faraday's cage and see if the problem goes away.
As Nic, I am lucky not to have such problems, so I cannot solve something I cannot reproduce.
> .... that we all look forward to see (and hear the price)
We do not charge more than anyone else here.
And you pay for a piece of art, not a collection of components.
Patrick
That I do not agree.
You should remember that the output to the IV circuit is a current and not voltage.
Current cannot go anywhere unless there is a conductor.
On top of that a twisted pair is quite resistant to noise pick up.
So I do not expect a few cm of wiring in between to be an issue.
As the power supply to the SEN is floating, it is susceptible to RF pickup.
You can try to cover each channel of the SEN with a grounded Faraday's cage and see if the problem goes away.
As Nic, I am lucky not to have such problems, so I cannot solve something I cannot reproduce.
> .... that we all look forward to see (and hear the price)
We do not charge more than anyone else here.
And you pay for a piece of art, not a collection of components.
Patrick
Hi
So am I. By (good) luck I mean random chance than happens to be beneficial. I could have used "fortuitous"- just more to type, and rather pompous between friends....
No, I've not used a battery on the digital supply. I have a couple of lead acid batteries, but both have given up the ghost (please don't tell me ghosts don't exist!). Ironically, the common mode choke I fitted to the reg was intended to isolate the supply from the mains. I've tried using a transformer-based common mode mains filter on the supply, but can hear no differences (nor does it affect the buzz- BTW this has gone again for the moment. This filter often has a startlingly beneficial effect on the sound of single ended gear). I've also tried a good quality switched mode supply- no noticeable difference.
Patrick. I only meant it might be slightly better-like losing 14-0 rather than 15-0 at football
Paul N
So am I. By (good) luck I mean random chance than happens to be beneficial. I could have used "fortuitous"- just more to type, and rather pompous between friends....
No, I've not used a battery on the digital supply. I have a couple of lead acid batteries, but both have given up the ghost (please don't tell me ghosts don't exist!). Ironically, the common mode choke I fitted to the reg was intended to isolate the supply from the mains. I've tried using a transformer-based common mode mains filter on the supply, but can hear no differences (nor does it affect the buzz- BTW this has gone again for the moment. This filter often has a startlingly beneficial effect on the sound of single ended gear). I've also tried a good quality switched mode supply- no noticeable difference.
Patrick. I only meant it might be slightly better-like losing 14-0 rather than 15-0 at football
Paul N
Sorry I thought you were joking with this art thing...
If any thing that has multiple outcome possibilities is an art, then many (all?) things are an art... cause I had many choices for dinner tonight, but I chose to eat a Shabu Shabu and I am very satisfied with my choice in all regards... so I'm an artist !
Anyway.. I still call that engineering...
Patrick. I only meant it might be slightly better-like losing 14-0 rather than 15-0 at football
So far I have not seen any scientific evidence of the fact that stacking the board under the DAC was the reason for the buzz/instability (which may well be 2 different things... I do not have instability.. I hear a buzz, and only in SE mode)... nor that placing the I/V converter beside it was any better
(actually what lacks most is a good engineering solution ... )
What I have seen is prejudice against it...
(but I forgot it's art, so there probably can not be any evidence or explanation
)
A comment on cable twisting.
The CEN/SEN PBC has a beautiful layout and is completely symmetrical. A piece of art
One "back-draw" of this design is that V+ and V- (as well as the current inputs) are located several centimeters apart rendering well done twisting of cable connections a geometrical impossibility (I'm sure Patrick will prove my geometry knowledge flawed).
In fact, in my estimate the SEN-board/Buffalo combo has >10 times the length of non-twisted cabling than has a well done stacked design.
As my SEN/BII-combo sounds divine, with a ton of cabling, I am in the perfect situation to see if stacking will deteriorate anything significantly.
The CEN/SEN PBC has a beautiful layout and is completely symmetrical. A piece of art
One "back-draw" of this design is that V+ and V- (as well as the current inputs) are located several centimeters apart rendering well done twisting of cable connections a geometrical impossibility (I'm sure Patrick will prove my geometry knowledge flawed
).In fact, in my estimate the SEN-board/Buffalo combo has >10 times the length of non-twisted cabling than has a well done stacked design.
As my SEN/BII-combo sounds divine, with a ton of cabling, I am in the perfect situation to see if stacking will deteriorate anything significantly.
> but I chose to eat a Shabu Shabu and I am very satisfied with my choice in all regards... so I'm an artist !
You are not, but the cook is, because there are infinitely many ways to cook Shabu Shabu.
Even based on the same ingredients and recipe, you can still do it wrong and then it does not taste so nice anymore.
> What I have seen is prejudice against it...
Do what pleases you.
Just don't complain that your noise problem is a circuit design fault of the IV converter.
Because I don't have the buzz problem, and neither does Nic.
> In fact, in my estimate the SEN-board/Buffalo combo has >10 times the length of non-twisted cabling than has a well done stacked design.
If you put the bottom layer of the PCB close to a grounded conductor, you get effective shielding.
And if you place it at a much larger distance to any disturbance, or even better a Ground plane in between, you can suppress any disturbance pick up.
It is a bit more difficult to shield the cable connected to the digital circuit.
That is why twisted cable there (near the digital board) helps.
Patrick
You are not, but the cook is, because there are infinitely many ways to cook Shabu Shabu.
Even based on the same ingredients and recipe, you can still do it wrong and then it does not taste so nice anymore.
> What I have seen is prejudice against it...
Do what pleases you.
Just don't complain that your noise problem is a circuit design fault of the IV converter.
Because I don't have the buzz problem, and neither does Nic.
> In fact, in my estimate the SEN-board/Buffalo combo has >10 times the length of non-twisted cabling than has a well done stacked design.
If you put the bottom layer of the PCB close to a grounded conductor, you get effective shielding.
And if you place it at a much larger distance to any disturbance, or even better a Ground plane in between, you can suppress any disturbance pick up.
It is a bit more difficult to shield the cable connected to the digital circuit.
That is why twisted cable there (near the digital board) helps.
Patrick
Hi Nic
Is your layout still as shown here?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...minimalistic-iv-converter-62.html#post2952599
Mine is here-
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...inimalistic-iv-converter-100.html#post3093382
Yours now seems much better in retrospect- the SEN boards aren’t directly over the digital board, and the latter is close to the grounded case work. I suspect our layouts were chosen as the easiest to implement from where we started- mine certainly was, but if you were more prescient, well done! And the fact you’re problem free fits with my hypothesis- not prejudice, LazyButt- that stacking the boards directly over one another may increase the changes of rf pickup/oscillation carrying audio noise into the circuit. I’ll test my hypothesis by putting the Sen boards either side of the Buffalo board, close to the casework. If the buzz is absent, and after trying to provoke it in the ways I’ve described, I’ll tentatively conclude that the altered layout has helped, and that the old layout was more problem prone. Only tentatively, because without knowing the exact nature of the interaction between the boards which provokes the hum- it might involve just the layout of the components and their links, and/or through space interactions, I won’t be able to probe the mechanism in detail. But I’ll be a happy listener
Paul N
Is your layout still as shown here?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...minimalistic-iv-converter-62.html#post2952599
Mine is here-
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...inimalistic-iv-converter-100.html#post3093382
Yours now seems much better in retrospect- the SEN boards aren’t directly over the digital board, and the latter is close to the grounded case work. I suspect our layouts were chosen as the easiest to implement from where we started- mine certainly was, but if you were more prescient, well done!
And the fact you’re problem free fits with my hypothesis- not prejudice, LazyButt- that stacking the boards directly over one another may increase the changes of rf pickup/oscillation carrying audio noise into the circuit. I’ll test my hypothesis by putting the Sen boards either side of the Buffalo board, close to the casework. If the buzz is absent, and after trying to provoke it in the ways I’ve described, I’ll tentatively conclude that the altered layout has helped, and that the old layout was more problem prone. Only tentatively, because without knowing the exact nature of the interaction between the boards which provokes the hum- it might involve just the layout of the components and their links, and/or through space interactions, I won’t be able to probe the mechanism in detail. But I’ll be a happy listener Paul N
I'm not complaining, and never have complained about a design fault in this thread (or show me where, and I'll apologize
!)I think however this particular circuit is more prone to RF pickup than others... I don't call that a design fault.. just one of the drawbacks of that particular arrangement. (sorry for the bad word
)Actually I suspect my buzz is coming from the Buffalo DAC (and I have some ideas as to why -something to do with a DC imbalance at the output of the ES9018 channels- ... just need time to do more measurements and tests => for sure if I find the answer I'll keep everyone posted)
It seems neither you or Nic are using an ES9018 in Single Ended mode..... or at least I have not read reports of it... that's why I was suggesting that no proper scientific evidence or test protocol has been shown so far...
And again: I don't have a buzz issue in Balanced mode either...
Cheers!
Fred
Fred,
I was just pulling your leg. Don't take it so serious.
It's hobby, and we should have fun.
We (the xen team) have some evidence of where all these buzz problems (might) come from.
But we make it a point not to criticise designs of others.
The fact that you have no buzz in balanced mode tells a lot.
Patrick
I was just pulling your leg. Don't take it so serious.
It's hobby, and we should have fun.
We (the xen team) have some evidence of where all these buzz problems (might) come from.
But we make it a point not to criticise designs of others.
The fact that you have no buzz in balanced mode tells a lot.
Patrick
Hi LazyButt
By SE output, do you mean taking just one phase and ground? This works OK for-me, no buzz at all! (Though I’ll recheck- presumably also “capricious”.) Ironic, given the issues I’ve had on occasion with a balanced output, and, particularly, the enormous amount of noise and distortion I heard with any other IV stage I’ve tried- Legato, Ivy, etc. See here-
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...inimalistic-iv-converter-104.html#post3097362
And here-
pink fish media - View Single Post - The art of Sen
Have you compared the two outputs in listing tests? At first I thought them to close to call, but, with more complex material- particularly solo piano- I preferred the balanced out. I run both SE and BAL singles through a Jensen JT-11P-1 line transformer before my single ended line stage- to convert BAL to SE, and to take benefit of the transformer’s common mode signal rejection for the SE single.
Best
Paul N
By SE output, do you mean taking just one phase and ground? This works OK for-me, no buzz at all! (Though I’ll recheck- presumably also “capricious”.) Ironic, given the issues I’ve had on occasion with a balanced output, and, particularly, the enormous amount of noise and distortion I heard with any other IV stage I’ve tried- Legato, Ivy, etc. See here-
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...inimalistic-iv-converter-104.html#post3097362
And here-
pink fish media - View Single Post - The art of Sen
Have you compared the two outputs in listing tests? At first I thought them to close to call, but, with more complex material- particularly solo piano- I preferred the balanced out. I run both SE and BAL singles through a Jensen JT-11P-1 line transformer before my single ended line stage- to convert BAL to SE, and to take benefit of the transformer’s common mode signal rejection for the SE single.
Best
Paul N