Awesome suggestion. Quiet too. I suspect you have a very good sounding rig.
Wifi a no go for me BTW. My efforts to shield the Pi proved to be effective. I am sticking with what I have as it is rock solid reliable. If I was building from scratch the SSD would be very attractive.
Hi Wolwes,
Did you try also the supercap through the main connector ?
You meant you also tried the 3.3v sided input vias with an external reg as well ? Do you need to feed also the main 5v connector to power the rest of the board as well ?
thank you if any other testimonial on that...
(I didn't liked A123 cell at the I2StoPCM main power input connector, but despite it's only 3.2 to 3.3v, the onboard critical ldo had no problem (but had it enough voltage for a proper regulation ? I just don't know !)
Ok, so I'm running into issues today. A known good pair of ndk boards cause my stack to seizure. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't find volumio, sometimes it tick, chirps, plays then drops out. Swap back to original clocks and it's fine.
Only difference between mine and Paul's setup is the 3 supercaps on the dac board.
Any thoughts before I pull the supercaps?
Only difference between mine and Paul's setup is the 3 supercaps on the dac board.
Any thoughts before I pull the supercaps?
@sq225917,
Can you give us more info so we can assist? AND I know you've provided some in the past, but trying to find and read all your previous posts to guess at what your setup looks like now doesn't work well.
- What are you using to power the FiFoPi?
- Did you put the supercaps in before or after the NDK clock adapters?
- Did one or the other work ok alone if they were not put in at the same time?
- Did the issues start immediately after you put in the last change (NDK clock adapters or supercaps) or was there some lag? If some lag, did you change anything else before the issue showed up?
- Did you ever see this type of issue in the past? If so, under what configuration(s) and circumstance(s)?
- Do you give the supercaps sufficient time to charge fully before trying to use the stack? How long does it take for them to get to full charge?
- What are the other components on your stack now and what are you using to power each?
- Is there anything else you can tell us to help troubleshoot this that I didn't ask?
Without good info, we are shooting blind and really can't assist. Sorta like when you didn't like the SQ, but didn't tell us you were still using the gimme clocks (which are not that good).
THANKS!
Greg in Mississippi
P.S. Current pix help a lot too and often people will see things that you didn't think to mention.
Can you give us more info so we can assist? AND I know you've provided some in the past, but trying to find and read all your previous posts to guess at what your setup looks like now doesn't work well.
- What are you using to power the FiFoPi?
- Did you put the supercaps in before or after the NDK clock adapters?
- Did one or the other work ok alone if they were not put in at the same time?
- Did the issues start immediately after you put in the last change (NDK clock adapters or supercaps) or was there some lag? If some lag, did you change anything else before the issue showed up?
- Did you ever see this type of issue in the past? If so, under what configuration(s) and circumstance(s)?
- Do you give the supercaps sufficient time to charge fully before trying to use the stack? How long does it take for them to get to full charge?
- What are the other components on your stack now and what are you using to power each?
- Is there anything else you can tell us to help troubleshoot this that I didn't ask?
Without good info, we are shooting blind and really can't assist. Sorta like when you didn't like the SQ, but didn't tell us you were still using the gimme clocks (which are not that good).
THANKS!
Greg in Mississippi
P.S. Current pix help a lot too and often people will see things that you didn't think to mention.
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@diyiggy,
It sounds like when you tried the LiFePO4 cell powering the i2s2PCM you feed it into the input to the on-board regulator. I posted an assessment of various power setups for the current GB gear in post #226 of this thread. Feeding 3.3V into the 3.3V-output-regulators on the FiFoPi board was by far the worse sounding setup. IF you want to try a 3.3V supply (battery, Ultracap, or otherwise) into something like the i2s2PCM, you want to bypass the local regulator(s) like you can do on the FiFoPi to get good-sounding results.
Greg in Mississippi
It sounds like when you tried the LiFePO4 cell powering the i2s2PCM you feed it into the input to the on-board regulator. I posted an assessment of various power setups for the current GB gear in post #226 of this thread. Feeding 3.3V into the 3.3V-output-regulators on the FiFoPi board was by far the worse sounding setup. IF you want to try a 3.3V supply (battery, Ultracap, or otherwise) into something like the i2s2PCM, you want to bypass the local regulator(s) like you can do on the FiFoPi to get good-sounding results.
Greg in Mississippi
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Simons rig is the same as mine LifePO4 supply>FIFO>DualMono DAC >AV std output stage.
Replaced the Opamps and XO's with NDK SDA's. Bridged out the LDO's.
Simon has fitted 3x supercaps to the 3 DAC rails but only then fitted the new XO's.
He has now pulled 2 of the supercaps leaving only AVCC and it is working properly again.
I suspect 3 separate voltage rails are required to work with 3x supercaps.
Supercaps are 5V 1.5F AVX.
Ok, all supercaps pulled. Back to entirely standard dual ess dac, fifopi and lifepo setup. No mods, nothing removed or bridged out.
It works with gimme xo. Ndks stutter, lose lock as leds flash and then volumio dies on wifi.
With ndk xo in place the two 3.3v rails from lifepo are dipping to 3.2v even fully charged, some times a few MVP under 3.2v. With gimme xo in place these are always 3.33v with a few mv until they've been running for hours.
The gimme xo have never lost lock, ever.
Is their more current draw on the ndk so? Shouldn't be an issue to cause voltage drop on fresh charged lifepo psu?
Could it be solely wifi related and everything else is red herring? Maybe try it on just a USB stick for file source?
It works with gimme xo. Ndks stutter, lose lock as leds flash and then volumio dies on wifi.
With ndk xo in place the two 3.3v rails from lifepo are dipping to 3.2v even fully charged, some times a few MVP under 3.2v. With gimme xo in place these are always 3.33v with a few mv until they've been running for hours.
The gimme xo have never lost lock, ever.
Is their more current draw on the ndk so? Shouldn't be an issue to cause voltage drop on fresh charged lifepo psu?
Could it be solely wifi related and everything else is red herring? Maybe try it on just a USB stick for file source?
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Maybe you could try one clock at a time. So long as you only play audio sample rates from the same clock family, it should probably work. Maybe there is a problem with one clock, or with one of the clock sockets. The connections can get loose.
Agree with Markw4
Considering all info available I'd be drawn to suspect an issue with the NDK clocks/adapters. Most likely that means an issue with solder. I have had issues where one pad just did not want to make a good joint and it took rosin and tinning to get it to connect. You sort of have narrowed it down to that as the gimmi clocks work. Electrically they are identical, just with different phase noise.
It would be unlikely however that both clocks would exhibit the same issue.
Perhaps double check the 3 caps on the bottom. A short down there could mess it up. Perhaps post pics of both sides of the clock adapters in case an eagle eye can spot something you have missed.
Worst case you may need to take a trip to Misterdog and try his NDK clocks in your rig.
Considering all info available I'd be drawn to suspect an issue with the NDK clocks/adapters. Most likely that means an issue with solder. I have had issues where one pad just did not want to make a good joint and it took rosin and tinning to get it to connect. You sort of have narrowed it down to that as the gimmi clocks work. Electrically they are identical, just with different phase noise.
It would be unlikely however that both clocks would exhibit the same issue.
Perhaps double check the 3 caps on the bottom. A short down there could mess it up. Perhaps post pics of both sides of the clock adapters in case an eagle eye can spot something you have missed.
Worst case you may need to take a trip to Misterdog and try his NDK clocks in your rig.
Did that in reverse at 5pm last evening. I swapped mine for Simons, same issue.
Though mine/Simons 'suspect'ones in my rig work fine.
I feel a trip to Canada forthcoming
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@misterdog / @sq225917,
I was going to suggest going over @sq225917's NDK's to identify what is different or wrong with them. Since a number of others are using NDK's with no issues, there's something unique with yours or your setup.
What version and frequencies NDKs do you two have? What sampling rates are your music selections? What adapters?
Also, closeup pix of both sets, top and bottom?
Also, if I understand it correctly, @misterdog's setup has the FiFoPi LDO's bypassed, but @sq225917's does not. The regulator on the FiFoPi that feeds the clocks is an LT3042 which maxes out at 250mA or so, the other is an LP5907 which is about the same. That both sets of NDK's work in @misterdog's setup, but neither in @sq225917's also suggests that your two sets require a lot more current than anyone else's and likely something is wrong with those assemblies OR they are wildly different than those used by everyone else (mostly 45/49 NDK SDA series from Lorien I believe).
As a baseline, I did run 45/49 NDK SDA's on Ian's original adapter in a FiFoPi with the LDO's not bypassed with both an AC-connected supply (1.5A or so max current) and Ian's LiFePO4 supply with no issues, playing ripped 44.1 CD source materials.
@sq225917, if I followed everything correctly and your LDOs are not bypassed, do that and try your (and @misterdog's) NDKs again. AND give us more info (and pix) as above.
THANKS!
Greg in Mississippi
I was going to suggest going over @sq225917's NDK's to identify what is different or wrong with them. Since a number of others are using NDK's with no issues, there's something unique with yours or your setup.
What version and frequencies NDKs do you two have? What sampling rates are your music selections? What adapters?
Also, closeup pix of both sets, top and bottom?
Also, if I understand it correctly, @misterdog's setup has the FiFoPi LDO's bypassed, but @sq225917's does not. The regulator on the FiFoPi that feeds the clocks is an LT3042 which maxes out at 250mA or so, the other is an LP5907 which is about the same. That both sets of NDK's work in @misterdog's setup, but neither in @sq225917's also suggests that your two sets require a lot more current than anyone else's and likely something is wrong with those assemblies OR they are wildly different than those used by everyone else (mostly 45/49 NDK SDA series from Lorien I believe).
As a baseline, I did run 45/49 NDK SDA's on Ian's original adapter in a FiFoPi with the LDO's not bypassed with both an AC-connected supply (1.5A or so max current) and Ian's LiFePO4 supply with no issues, playing ripped 44.1 CD source materials.
@sq225917, if I followed everything correctly and your LDOs are not bypassed, do that and try your (and @misterdog's) NDKs again. AND give us more info (and pix) as above.
THANKS!
Greg in Mississippi
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@sq225917, you asked about the LL1544a transformer output stage versus the IVStd with upgraded opamps.
I did some comparisons of those earlier this week.
I tested several combinations on an RPi2B -> FiFoPi -> 9038 Dual Mono stack. The RPi was powered by a modified K&K low voltage supply, the FiFoPi / DAC board / and IVStd (when used) by Ian's LiFePO4 supply. A pair of 45/49 Crystek CCHD-957's were in the FiFoPi with basically stock bypass caps on Ian's new-style adapters.
Due to digital playback setups with a fairly high corner frequency in the output stage filtering giving me headaches and ringing in my ears, I've lowered the corner frequency of the IVStd IV stage by going to 1500pFs instead of the stock 270pF. With these changes, the apparent cutoff is similar to that of the production version Allo.com Katana. With the stock filtering on the IVStd, I got ringing in my ears. With the 1500pF, it is just barely at the point where I don't unless I listen for a long time or too loudly. I also tried the Rasmussen mod pre-I/V filtering on the IVStd, similar to the Katana's 'Sound Quality' Opamp board version.
I'm using 330R/3400pF resistor/cap combos with the LL1544a setup, which gives a similar corner frequency.
The modified IVStd with the 1500pF was pretty good with either OPA1612 or Sparkos. I liked them both better with the Rasmussen filtering engaged. That configuration gave the most natural-sound I got with the active IV stage with good layering and depth. The OPA1612 provided a tiny bit more midrange detailing, but with a higher level on the trebles. The Sparkos provided the best macro and micro dynamics and were the most natural sounding in my setup, to my ears, and with my preferences.
The LL1544a output stage was not far behind the two variations of the IVStd with the Rasmussen filtering, perhaps a bit more listenable and natural sounding, but behind a bit in detailing, impact, and dynamics.
I think at this point it would fall to personal preferences. All of these setups were good. I do rate that setup behind my current Katana setup, but not far. AND there are still a lot of tweaks and refinements to apply to the Ian GB stack, so don't take this as my final assessment!
Greg in Mississippi
I did some comparisons of those earlier this week.
I tested several combinations on an RPi2B -> FiFoPi -> 9038 Dual Mono stack. The RPi was powered by a modified K&K low voltage supply, the FiFoPi / DAC board / and IVStd (when used) by Ian's LiFePO4 supply. A pair of 45/49 Crystek CCHD-957's were in the FiFoPi with basically stock bypass caps on Ian's new-style adapters.
Due to digital playback setups with a fairly high corner frequency in the output stage filtering giving me headaches and ringing in my ears, I've lowered the corner frequency of the IVStd IV stage by going to 1500pFs instead of the stock 270pF. With these changes, the apparent cutoff is similar to that of the production version Allo.com Katana. With the stock filtering on the IVStd, I got ringing in my ears. With the 1500pF, it is just barely at the point where I don't unless I listen for a long time or too loudly. I also tried the Rasmussen mod pre-I/V filtering on the IVStd, similar to the Katana's 'Sound Quality' Opamp board version.
I'm using 330R/3400pF resistor/cap combos with the LL1544a setup, which gives a similar corner frequency.
The modified IVStd with the 1500pF was pretty good with either OPA1612 or Sparkos. I liked them both better with the Rasmussen filtering engaged. That configuration gave the most natural-sound I got with the active IV stage with good layering and depth. The OPA1612 provided a tiny bit more midrange detailing, but with a higher level on the trebles. The Sparkos provided the best macro and micro dynamics and were the most natural sounding in my setup, to my ears, and with my preferences.
The LL1544a output stage was not far behind the two variations of the IVStd with the Rasmussen filtering, perhaps a bit more listenable and natural sounding, but behind a bit in detailing, impact, and dynamics.
I think at this point it would fall to personal preferences. All of these setups were good. I do rate that setup behind my current Katana setup, but not far. AND there are still a lot of tweaks and refinements to apply to the Ian GB stack, so don't take this as my final assessment!
Greg in Mississippi
I feel a trip to Canada forthcoming
Drop by my place and say Hi. I am just down the road from Ian.
Thank you very much Greg,
Have I to understand I must remove the on board ldo on the I2StoPCM board to try a cleaner 3.3V ? Seems Wolwes didn't bypass or didn't remove the ldo... at least my understanding !
I2StoPCM manual seems to tell : you can bypass the ldo if V is below the voltage needed to drop at the ouputt of the reg...but on the I2StoPCM board one needs to remove the ldo to power a cleaner 3.3v through the sided vias marked In/Gnd/3.3V vias ? And in the same time it is advised to feed the main 5V to 6V power input with 3.2 to 3.3 V LiFePo cells.
So what's the best way for the LiPoFe or any 3.3V power supply ? Main power supply plug or 3.3V free vias ? Do we need to remove the on board ldo if powered with 3.2V to 3.3V :
- through the main power supply
- through the 3.3V vias
- need to remove the onboard ldo as the manual says or is it ok with the on board ldo if power is equal or less then 3.3V (ldo doesn't work but allow to passv 3.3Vwithout regulating because not rnough voltage to drop ?
Could we have an input from iancanada about that ? One MUST to remove the onboard LDO or not for feeding 3.3V through the 3.3V input vias ??
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Sorry, I forgot the ldos are bypassed. The only difference between Paul's and mine is that hes running an ssd I'm on wifi.
I'm increasingly suspecting it's a rpi wifi or pin issue on the fifopi. As Paul's ndk boards dont work here but work at his.
I went back to stock xo last night both frequency families are fine. I will work through one clock swaps today with various source materials and file locations, USB vs wifi etc.
I'm increasingly suspecting it's a rpi wifi or pin issue on the fifopi. As Paul's ndk boards dont work here but work at his.
I went back to stock xo last night both frequency families are fine. I will work through one clock swaps today with various source materials and file locations, USB vs wifi etc.