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Old 8th September 2011, 04:37 AM   #91
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First of all, this DAC is base on a DIY project but just assembled with a chassis, which was same as something prototype only, the marketing of the factory is very smart, they sell prototype to DIYer for compensate the R&D cost, but if you know the local price, you will forgive and willing to pay a trial, since it is just in US dollar around $200 for a built one.

The complete design which no more kit and marketing as a factory made is this one:
5i-10 ?WM8741 ?????-HIFI??

Other then new layout, circuit improvements, new calculation and some new tricks, overall the new version sound smoother and more details then the KIT version.

However, I don't understand the terms of "clarity" Ian you refer to, is simply the sound, an audition feelings or something base on a technical terms? Since if you compare WM8741 to AD1955 or else, you will never get a "clarity" sound, because WM8741 is the most "analog sound" DAC chip in the market right now.
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Old 8th September 2011, 04:43 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANADIGIT View Post
I also have this WM8741 DUAL DAC, too
I think there're some problem on LPF, If you see input point before Opamp you can jump these signal to external voltage gain and use them.

Too many different sound and more liquid if you use only 16BIT function. After I used >176.4KHz there'remany noise and error signal I don't knor why ?

Lyricxx Audxx ?

Thanks
Anadigit
This DIY version the WM8805 is only working at hardware mode, which only support 24/48, to support over 48 the WM8805 should work at software mode, however, even software mode, the WM8805 still have problem with 176.4, because WM8805 suppose only recognise 44.1, 48, 96 and 192 only.

Now the new version other then working at software mode, they also pump the MCLK from recommanded 12MHz to 24Mhz, this made the WM8805 also recognise 88.1 and 176.4.
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Old 8th September 2011, 11:17 AM   #93
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Quote:
WM8805 is only working at hardware mode, which only support 24/48
in HM 8804\8805 support 32,44.1,48,88.2,96 and 192
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Old 8th September 2011, 07:14 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldkenn View Post
Other then new layout, circuit improvements, new calculation and some new tricks, overall the new version sound smoother and more details then the KIT version.

However, I don't understand the terms of "clarity" Ian you refer to, is simply the sound, an audition feelings or something base on a technical terms? Since if you compare WM8741 to AD1955 or else, you will never get a "clarity" sound, because WM8741 is the most "analog sound" DAC chip in the market right now.
Hi Goldkenn,
Thanks for those informations. Do you have any idea on how to improve this WM8741 DAC? I bought it almost a year ago, I suspect it was their first edition. Still some problems other then the one I mentioned, things like when you go the 96KHz directly, it will generate very big noise on the speakers if you didn't swithch the button to the high Fs mode, and this will be happend again and agian each time when you power up it because it didn't save the last setting. and....it's not very stable at 192Khz...

Talking about clarity, trust me Goldkenn, it's very immportant for a DAC. If you have a FIFO together with a really nice low phase noise clock, you will find out how much details we didn't hear before. The only significant thing I'm asking for a DAC is originally music playing back, as pure as possible. If I ask for some 'tasty' likes 'analog sound', I would try tube stage, preamp or even different cables. But any way, that's only my personal point of view . Ian

Last edited by iancanada; 8th September 2011 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 9th September 2011, 04:00 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazar_lv View Post
in HM 8804\8805 support 32,44.1,48,88.2,96 and 192
But refer to this DAC manufacturer, HM of WM8805 only "suppose" to support over 48K, over 48K very depend on the stability and quality of the source signal, they do shown they can go through up to 192K in lab, but non of the commercial player in market could do, in terms of price matching, in China local DIY forum they also admit high FS is only an experimental function, and high FS source other then CD they only recommend using I2S to get rid of the WM8805.

The manufacturer never lie, from the very first kit, they already do announaced they will have further improvment in coming new version, many consumer in China did bought all 3 versions for support them.
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Old 9th September 2011, 04:19 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iancanada View Post
Hi Goldkenn,
Thanks for those informations. Do you have any idea on how to improve this WM8741 DAC? I bought it almost a year ago, I suspect it was their first edition. Still some problems other then the one I mentioned, things like when you go the 96KHz directly, it will generate very big noise on the speakers if you didn't swithch the button to the high Fs mode, and this will be happend again and agian each time when you power up it because it didn't save the last setting. and....it's not very stable at 192Khz...
Yours is already the 2nd version, the very first version is this one:

单WM8741 + WM8805 & DIR9001 多功能解码板(普通晶振,5532*4)-淘宝网

I still have one of each both versions in hand, I did discuss with them about any improvement comments and modification idea from the 1st version, other then make the WM8805 in full SW mode, specially if considering the cost issue, there is no other way out.

From the 1st version to the final non-DIY version, they spend over 2 years to finalize the design, considering the final version just cost in US dollar around $3xx, I don't think it worth to pay time and effort to modify the 2nd version you have in hand, maybe as a personal interest time and effort should not count as in terms of cost, but actually, our time and effort do cost something, at least everybody here as professional as you Ian, if you pay time and effort to modify the 2nd version, finally the cost must be much higher then simply pay US$3xx to buy the new final 3rd version of this DAC, right?

Last edited by goldkenn; 9th September 2011 at 04:30 AM.
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Old 9th September 2011, 04:29 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iancanada View Post
Talking about clarity, trust me Goldkenn, it's very immportant for a DAC. If you have a FIFO together with a really nice low phase noise clock, you will find out how much details we didn't hear before. The only significant thing I'm asking for a DAC is originally music playing back, as pure as possible. If I ask for some 'tasty' likes 'analog sound', I would try tube stage, preamp or even different cables. But any way, that's only my personal point of view . Ian
By the way, I just don't understand your terms and meaning of "clarity" in before, but now I get you, your "clarity" = resolution, right?

WM8741 if treat well, should be the most details DAC chip now in the market, specially about low level details and harmonics reproduction, other like AD1955 or else, personally I will say they are just very typical "hifi" chips..... speedy, sharp, bright and dynamic, perfect signal reproduction but not playing music.

And you are right, if want a tasty sound, simply use tubes will be fine, tubes is the most neutral, organic seasoner in hifi world
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Old 9th September 2011, 07:30 AM   #98
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Quote:
But refer to this DAC manufacturer, HM of WM8805 only "suppose" to support over 48K, over 48K very depend on the stability and quality of the source signal, they do shown they can go through up to 192K in lab
It is problem of badly "cooked" 8804\8805,
this chips perfectly support up to 192, no problem, when right designed
Quote:
but not playing music.
+1
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Old 9th September 2011, 05:12 PM   #99
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Hope is OK to comment on WM8741.
I am a fan of the WM8741 and I've written Arduino s/w to control the DAC (volume, filters, etc) and I've made that available to the diy community...
Comparing it with other dacs, the s/w interface seems mature and the registers are logically organized.

So, is the kit that is being discussed exposes the pins for s/w mode?
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Old 15th September 2011, 04:28 AM   #100
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Default Start to design the second clock board: double XO clock board MK2

Thanks guys, you made a lot of good points. I did some consideration. Now I’m thinking about design a new double XO clock board MK2 to make some improvement

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1audio View Post
And the start up time and retrace of a crystal should be understood. A good oscillator actually takes a while to stabilize. usually the specs are not guaranteed until the oscillator has run for a period, like 24 hours. Some really take weeks or months before they have really settled. Switching oscillators on and off between tracks may really compromise their performance.
Very good point. This issue was confirmed in my test. For a same oscillator, running it for a longer time (says more than a hour) will make it sounds better than just power it up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazar_lv View Post
as you see for old LS series Phase jitter is only 0.12pS RMS but all this is very dependent from PSU noise (for CMOS devices especially)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1audio View Post
Here is a potential alternative for fast low noise SSI logic Potato Semiconductor / The GHz TTL/ CMOS IO Interface Logic/ Potato IC The stuff really works and meets the specs, probably better than the specs.
Although Nazar_lv mentioned that the flip-flop for I2S re-clocking introduces very small amount of jitter, but obviously the GHz flip-flop has much better performance and it 'really works'. I got some of them(PO74G74) last weekend. I'd like to try it to boost the I2S re-clock function. At least, the NOS DAC will benefit from it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simmconn View Post
1) The clock switching based on input signal sample rate change should be instantaneous.
Good point again, I will do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simmconn View Post
3) Using a relay to switch between clocks may not be a good idea. For starters, it is not glitch-free.
I already took the relay glitch into account when I was design this clock board and it tested without any influence on the performance. But true, it's not glitch-free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post
Hi Ian, very interesting indeed!! nice job on the pcb, what size micro coax are you using? ufl or wfl connectors? i ask, because all i2s inputs on my gear is using wfl
Very good recommendation. I found the SMA clock connector as well as the coaxial cable I'm using right now was too big and not very easy to hookup to the digital audio projects. The U.FL(3*3mm), which is widely used in many new RF applications, would be much more compact, and the matched coaxial cable is softer as well. Although the bandwidth is not as high as the SMA(up to 18GHz), but still more than enough in my applications. I got some samples of them and will be switched to this new RF connectors later on. The W.FL (2*2mm) seems too smaller for me. If you really need it, you can use some U.FL to W.FL jumpers.

Although two things I didn’t like to do when I was designing this double XO clock board:
1. Running two oscillators at same time;
2. Buffering the clock;

But it seems I have to make some compromise to make it more ‘audiophile’.
The new double XO clock board MK2 will have the following additional features:
1. Replacing the relay with low jitter dedicated clock distribution fan-out buffer to implement the frequency switching and to drive the clock coaxial cable;
2. Running the two oscillators all the time with low noise LDO and separated power EMI suppression filter;
3. Re-clocking the I2S signals with the low noise 600MHz PO74G74 flip-flop;
4. MCLK and three I2S signals will be connected by additional 6GHz U.FL RF connectors.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg PO74G74.jpg (147.5 KB, 1182 views)
File Type: jpg U.FL.jpg (151.5 KB, 1167 views)

Last edited by iancanada; 15th September 2011 at 04:41 AM.
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