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Old 13th December 2010, 02:33 AM   #1
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Default Digital active crossover listening tests

Recently I've participated in some listening tests of various active crossovers over two separate days in two systems.

We compared
Behringer Ultradrive DCX
Behringer Ultradrive DCX with the Pilgrim audio mods
MiniDSP
DEQX

We did two tests:
1. digital conversions
2. digital active crossovers

We used an instant switching level match box that switches both inputs and outputs. For the first test, we let the units simply act as digital converters of an analogue input - ADC then DAC. We compared to a loop through wire.

For the second, we set up with the same settings and measured to ensure we were comparing level matched and with the filters doing the same thing. It's quite time consuming to set up an event like this, so it was not the last word on perfect accuracy. We did not match to within 0.1 db but we took a decent stab at matching.

We didn't do the test blind. While this may disappoint some, but I felt that using instant switching would be revealing enough. We did this test for our own curiosity, but no one had a point to prove. In a previous informal comparison, I found that was enough even with levels obviously not matched. No one in that test could hear a difference with the digital conversions vs a loop through wire, not even one person there who was certain a difference would be heard.

Our extended tests did show differences, but I'd call them subtle. At certain times, I noticed a difference in imaging where there was a small shift. The instant switch during a sustained note is quite revealing. MiniDSP appeared to have increased treble detail compared to DCX, despite mreasurements showing that it rolls off more above 20k. The measurements from what I recall didn't seem to reveal why that might be the case.

The full write up is here in my blog:
Red Spade Audio: Active crossover listening tests
and there are more comments in the linked SNA thread.

My findings if I can sum it up in a nutshell?
MiniDSP is the first one you want to try out of these.

DEQX sadly didn't quite get a fair trial, we had time limits and something wasn't quite right.
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Old 13th December 2010, 11:24 AM   #2
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Thank you very much for the review. I highly appreciated it.
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Old 13th December 2010, 01:31 PM   #3
doug20 is offline doug20  United States
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Thank!!
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Old 13th December 2010, 04:31 PM   #4
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As a potential MiniDSP customer, this was VERY interesting. Thanks to everyone involved!

I think I still need a little convincing that the 48khz sample rate used internally isn't the limiting factor for me, demonstrated by the sharp roll off above 20khz. I know that we can't hear that high, but I have trouble with the idea that parts of the high definition source material we buy is missing!

In subjective terms at least, did you notice any degradation of the sound using the digital volume control of the MiniDSP?

Last edited by jaistanley; 13th December 2010 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 13th December 2010, 09:55 PM   #5
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This is just perfect timing-thank you! I'm ready to ditch my noisy DCX and buy MiniDsp. I have some questions which may be a bit off topic but would appreciate advise.
I can buy two miniDSP's to get me 8 channel's = 4 way stereo. I can go either analogue or digital directly from my behringer SRC 2496 to the miniDsp. Digital would mean one less ad/da conversion, but I then need 2 Minidigi's-to get 8 channels out of the 2 Minidsp's. I'd also have the issue of AES/EBU 110ohm out to 75ohm rca coax/toslink in. This mismatch may be worse than analog as I've read it can add jitter/reflections-17' cable.

Rather than continue w/a good tube preamp to the xover, I can go direct and use my Harmon Kardon receiver as a vol control (it has 8 in's and 8 preamp out's), unbalanced and surprisingly good specs for this use. I want to defeat the hiss issue w/the DCX and understand this is best accomplished by feeding a proper level signal in to the MiniDSP w/the vol control after it. I would appreciate opinions on how best to set this up/if I'm going in the right direction.
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Old 13th December 2010, 10:31 PM   #6
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Hi there,

It was my modified DCX that we took along to these listening tests,, and to be honest I had expectations that the modified DCX, with all its upgrades, would out perform stock DCX and miniDSP.. In actual fact they pretty much all sounded the same!! (to me anyway..)

The only obvious thing we proved was to stay away from digital attenuation!!

Cheers,
M
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Old 14th December 2010, 12:45 AM   #7
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G'day Murphy, I recognise you by the Murphy and the avatar! It was quite novel to see a DCX that has a remote!

We measured more top end on the DCX, MiniDSP rolled off above 20k quite sharply, something many audiophiles would be bothered about. But have they had a hearing test? I tried a quick test online and I made it to 19k, not bad for a 35 year old. I'm tempted to blame those crappy PC speakers! (Imagine the worst you can get, then make it even cheaper).

If anything I felt the MiniDSP had just a touch more treble detail, even though the measurements we took didn't indicate that this should be the case.

AES - you might run into a problem there. My situation is the opposite. I can't run SPDIF into DCX as the level is far too high, although last time I tried it, I had it going into DEQ first.

BTW, I use DCX (2 of us use a stock version), and don't find the noise to be an issue, although some are more fussy or have different results. I often have the Plasma running as well and it makes more noise - sadly it is a bit of a pest. You can easily miss that kind of thing in a retail store with too much noise going on all the time.

One thing that did come out of the 2 days. Sometimes to pick subtle differences, you actually have to deliberately listen for something specific. Keith was quite good at this, who hosted the first day. He mentioned towards the end that he would listen for just one thing then block out the rest of the music and focus on that. If you just listen to the music overall, your sensory acuity will drop right down and you'll always miss things. So with the subtle things, you have to zero in and listen for the noise floor, or pay attention to the treble detail, or the image location of one instrument in particular. That's where you listen very carefully at the moment of the instant switch. Then you can decide how significant that change is. I think for most of us, the differences were small enough to pass under the radar when listening for enjoyment rather than listening critically.

Now I just wish MiniDSP could match the power of DEQX for dealing with phase. If you hear a system well set up on DEQX, it's definitely an experience. The most incredible imaging I've ever heard so far resides at Bathurst (thanks Terry). There is a seat over a spot marked X with masking tape and it all happens there.

PS - let me know Murphy if that digital input mod idea of yours works on DCX!
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Old 14th December 2010, 11:38 PM   #8
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Hi Paul,

You do have a 'nack' for recalling accurately in your posts.. Great post above!

Just for the others, I will explain that I too can't seem to use Digital Input on my DCX as each digital source I use seems to 'clip' (Red LED constantly flashing) the DCX input!! Upon study of the circuit diagram, I found a 110 ohm resistor across the digital input that sets up the 110 ohm transmission impedance of AES/EBU digital standard.. I am hoping that if I replace this with a 75 ohm resistor, I can better "tune" to SPDIF standards, and maybe solve issue with digital source clipping the input??

I will let you know how it goes :-)

Cheers,
Murphy
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Old 14th December 2010, 11:45 PM   #9
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Murphy, I'm hoping that one works out, because I'd like to be able to try digital input. The pest of course is that I can only try it out until I get multi channel volume control. Wait - does your DCX do that with the mods?
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Old 15th December 2010, 12:19 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulspencer View Post
Murphy, I'm hoping that one works out, because I'd like to be able to try digital input. The pest of course is that I can only try it out until I get multi channel volume control. Wait - does your DCX do that with the mods?
Yes, amongst others, it is part of the "active i/o" mod..

8 channel (2 for analog inputs) preamp style analog volume control, including on/off, mute, main volume, separate Low/Hi volume and left/right balance,, with memory save/recall..

The only 'catch' is that although it's 8 channel volume, it's stereo pairs!!
So you might say 4 channel stereo volume..

Eg, the pairs are:
-input A / input B
-Output 1 / 2
-Output 3/ 4
-Output 5 / 6

With the separate Low/Hi volume being for output 1&2, and 5&6 respectively..

Cheers..
M
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