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Old 23rd December 2010, 04:53 PM   #61
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One thing I pity did not have the chance was instant switch comparation between ANALOG xo and those DSPs. That would be quite interesting.

The miniDSP I brought had a gain stage inserted using TL072 op-amp. So the test somewhat provides some insight about its transparency...?

I admit I have strong bias about electronics being generally transparent. Although I had been caught with this as well, when using some "Sherwood" amp that someone gave me. My point is these electronics may provide a "micro difference" where I'm more interested to "macro difference".

Replacing dome tweeters with a compression driver would be a good example of "macro difference".
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Old 24th December 2010, 09:04 AM   #62
Baldin is offline Baldin  Denmark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gainphile View Post
Replacing dome tweeters with a compression driver would be a good example of "macro difference".
Good point.
And is this not exactly the outcome of this test?
Thet they sounded pretty much the same, and will therefore be equally good building blocks in a digitally cross over system.
So use these as the tools for making the macro differences, by using your prefered speaker units.

And as always remember the macro differences made up by the room acoustics, and the way they are treated.

Good thread

PS. And Merry Christmas to all
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Old 24th December 2010, 08:26 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldin View Post
Thet they sounded pretty much the same, and will therefore be equally good building blocks in a digitally cross over system.
That is exactly my takeaway from these excercise.

First, that I hear no difference between direct wire vs. DSP (yes, with ADC->DAC)

Second, that it does not matter which DSPs to use. They sound the same.

That comes down to price and functionality, where MiniDSP is superior.
For example DCX can't do Linkwitz Transform which I consider very important.
But DCX don't need a laptop so it may be useful in some situation.


One DSP which was an outlier was the DEQX. I think it is either faulty of there is some missing configuration. They sounded "strange".
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Old 10th March 2012, 12:19 AM   #64
DjSinae is offline DjSinae  Canada
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new to the digital crossover game...

I'm totally disappointing by the products companies offer and the complexity to have a decent home studio active crossover setup at reasonable price... the market could be udge if a ES9018 minidsp 8channel with FIR and phase correction appear at like 800$... but for now...

can't believe the stupidity..

it's not like it's a new domain... companies should know what is needed like passive volume or 32bit volume not to loose bitdepth or good digital input to bypass tons of conversions that color the sound or a good dac... etc....

to think to have a decent setup i would have to pay 2500$ just for the crossovers more than twice the price of my speakers... kinda freaky..

or diy my way thru hell..
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Old 9th November 2014, 05:18 PM   #65
6NS is offline 6NS  Thailand
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This is a very old thread but I need to find the answer to this,,,,,,,,,,,
The signal gos from transport to DAC, then to DSP, then to Digital crossover,,, in some instances. WHICH CONVERSION ARE WE LISTENING TO?
Is it senseless to have a high quality DAC before the other two conversions or does the first conversion the DAC does, stay in the line to the end some how?
Someone please fill me in here,
Thanks so much,
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Old 10th November 2014, 05:56 AM   #66
6NS is offline 6NS  Thailand
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Originally Posted by 6NS View Post
This is a very old thread but I need to find the answer to this,,,,,,,,,,,
The signal gos from transport to DAC, then to DSP, then to Digital crossover,,, in some instances. WHICH CONVERSION ARE WE LISTENING TO?
Is it senseless to have a high quality DAC before the other two conversions or does the first conversion the DAC does, stay in the line to the end some how?
Someone please fill me in here,
Thanks so much,

I'm also wondering how stable a pair of identical tube amplifiers are when used in a vertical bi-amp configuration.
Thanks again Abrax
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Old 10th November 2014, 06:32 AM   #67
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Normally the DSP is also the digital crossover (they're all math functions after all) so you definitely don't want to link any DSP to a digital crossover with an analog connection. Assuming here that 'DSP' means some kind of room correction. Ideally keep everything digital until the final D/A, normally before the poweramp.

Going back to your particular question, yes its senseless to convert to analog after some DSP, then feed analog into a digital crossover (which has to do ADC to get into the digital domain again).

<edit> I'm not familiar with tube amps - all my amps have to date been SS so not experienced enough to comment on that question.
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Last edited by abraxalito; 10th November 2014 at 06:35 AM.
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Old 10th November 2014, 06:58 AM   #68
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People tend to jump to conclusions on this topic, before doing the hard work of actually doing a real and meaningful comparison. This test was all about testing those assumptions.

If an extra conversion is inaudible, how exactly is it senseless to add one, especially where the alternative may introduce other problems?

All else being equal, I would prefer to have just one digital to analogue conversion. The problem is that this tends to make volume control problematic. Now you need your DSP or a device after it to handle master volume control. If you use digital attenuation as suggested by MiniDSP as a simple solution, and have it all integrated with your remote, does it introduce any kind of sonic degradation? Without doing a proper listening test, why would you jump to this solution over one that has been shown to have (in a couple of examples) no audible artifacts?

The point I'm making here is to check your assumptions and consider finding out if they match reality.

What is a high quality DAC? Do you mean high priced? Do you presume that a high quality DAC is not used in MiniDSP due to the price?

I have been able to identify much more expensive DACs blind. This was not due to their superior sound quality, but rather easy to pick differences between the units like gain and tonal balance.
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Old 10th November 2014, 07:33 AM   #69
6NS is offline 6NS  Thailand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxalito View Post
Normally the DSP is also the digital crossover (they're all math functions after all) so you definitely don't want to link any DSP to a digital crossover with an analog connection. Assuming here that 'DSP' means some kind of room correction. Ideally keep everything digital until the final D/A, normally before the poweramp.

Going back to your particular question, yes its senseless to convert to analog after some DSP, then feed analog into a digital crossover (which has to do ADC to get into the digital domain again).

<edit> I'm not familiar with tube amps - all my amps have to date been SS so not experienced enough to comment on that question.

Thanks so much.
I'm running a DAC into a 3way digital crossover because there is no other input on the crossover to take the one cable output of my transport.
I really have a hard time believing the crossover could do DAC conversions as well as my DAC. That's what I thought though, my DAC is being wasted as an input for the digital crossover. I feel better knowing though. I'm amazed at how good this crossover is now. Do comment again if something comes to mind.
Thanks again,
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Old 10th November 2014, 07:42 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulspencer View Post
If an extra conversion is inaudible, how exactly is it senseless to add one, especially where the alternative may introduce other problems?
Certainly its a very big 'if'. But if inaudible I would agree with this.

Quote:
All else being equal, I would prefer to have just one digital to analogue conversion. The problem is that this tends to make volume control problematic. Now you need your DSP or a device after it to handle master volume control. If you use digital attenuation as suggested by MiniDSP as a simple solution, and have it all integrated with your remote, does it introduce any kind of sonic degradation? Without doing a proper listening test, why would you jump to this solution over one that has been shown to have (in a couple of examples) no audible artifacts?
I've not been back to the start of the thread so I'm missing some context here, and no particular desire to catch up. Shown to two others to have 'no audible artifacts' would not satisfy me, I'd need to be sure I heard no artifacts.

Quote:
The point I'm making here is to check your assumptions and consider finding out if they match reality.
Well sure, now check yours. Which assumptions have you assumed I've made?

Quote:
What is a high quality DAC?
One that sounds high quality - delivers listening satisfaction to myself.

Quote:
Do you mean high priced?
No, I mean high sound quality. Price is a quantity.

Quote:
Do you presume that a high quality DAC is not used in MiniDSP due to the price?
I don't presume it, I observe it.
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