USB DAC isolation ?

[soundcheck]

Hi there.

I was wondering if somebody could share a great idea of how to galvanically isolate an USB 2.0 DAC, just by introducing a selfpowered DIY-adapter.

I am currently using an Opticics fibre optics cable, which does quite a good job.

The 2nd big advantage of the Opticis: A regulated 5V on the secondary allows to supply USB
powered DACs very easliy with clean power. (This should be also possible with the new solution)

The Opticis does USB 1.1 only and is pretty expensive.


THX

 

[soundcheck]

Ping.

Nobody ever tried it?

 

[luxury54]

what about jitter introduced by optic transmitter? it may be added to the already very jiterry standard usb protocol doing more harm than good...
i think this should be done in another approach,using asynchronous usb transfer by putting low jitter clock near the DAC and slaving the PC to it just like wavelength company does and after that isolating the modern 24/96 delta-sigma DAC from the following equipment by using the benefit of galvanic isolation of the output audio-transformers attached after the DAC (with no OP-amps or any discrete amplification stages,because these delta-sigma Dacs already have a 2,5V output)

just my 2 cents

 

[soundcheck]

Hi there.

1. I am using asynchronous DACs. An M-Audio Transit (async at 44.1 and 48) and an EMU
0404 USB.
On my M-Audio Transit the Opticis is doing a great job.

2. I also used the Opticis on my PCM2707 based receiver. I wouldn't go without it.

Cheers

 

[luxury54]

hmm i also used to have an M-audio transit but hated the sound coming out of it so i sold it
(maybe the AKM dac implementation followed by a unity gain buffer Op wasn't so good)
but i don't think it used asynchronous protocol over USB - are you sure about this info?
i mean, the guy from wavelength has spent 900+ hours writing it's own code for the chip for this implementation selling these new concept DACs at 7500$ (as i saw on their webpage) and m-audio selling the transit with 80$?
if it would be the case,then it's worth trying to tap the I2S signals from M-audio and drive some high-end DAC with them along with some good analog stages...
but again,i don't think it's the case for that because such an implementation has a good quality low jitter clock right beside the dac powered from a very clean PS and the PC is slaved back to it
(i have opened the transit and no such thing like a master clock beside the dac,it even uses that noisy 5v from PC's usb to power the Dac)

 

[soundcheck]

I did tweak the Tranist of course:

* 5V regulated supply
* Blackgate cap (for 3.3. regulator)
* Removed output caps
* Opticis USB cable
* AnalogOut opamp Maxim MAX4477

90% of the sound detoriation is usually caused by the peripharals and not the DAC chip itself.

What you pay for at Wavelength are the peripharals and the look.
I doubt that it takes 900hours for an experienced coder to get a bit of software in place.
The next project Gordan will probably do in 150hours.Of course there is a lot of marketing behind it. EMU and M-Audio won't even talk about it.


See below the stream parameters under Linux while playing back ( /proc/asound/card0/stream0). You can see that the interface plays in async mode up to 48khz.

M-Audio Transit USB at usb-0000:00:1d.2-1.3, full speed : USB Audio

Playback:
  Status: Running
    Interface = 1
    Altset = 3
    URBs = 2 [ 1 1 ]
    Packet Size = 196
    Momentary freq = 44100 Hz (0x2c.199a)
  Interface 1
    Altset 1
    Format: 0x20
    Channels: 2
    Endpoint: 3 OUT (ADAPTIVE)
    Rates: 48001 - 96000 (continuous)
  Interface 1
    Altset 2
    Format: 0x20
    Channels: 2
    Endpoint: 3 OUT (NONE)
    Rates: 8000 - 48000 (continuous)
  Interface 1
    Altset 3
    Format: 0x2
    Channels: 2
    Endpoint: 3 OUT (ASYNC)
    Rates: 8000 - 48000 (continuous)

 

[luxury54]

those linux logs mean nothing...this is what i mean in terms of asynchronous usb transfer (and I'm sure M-audio doesn't use this) - please read Crowbar's explanation from following link

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/async-mode-breakthrough-usb-dacs-271356/

 

[soundcheck]

those linux logs mean nothing

You seem to be the Linux expert here. Would be nice to hear your own explanation.
I am always happy if I can gain some expert knowledge.


Not to forget:

This thread is actually about isolating USB 2.0 up to 480MBit/s and not about USB modes.
Any expertise in this area?

Cheers

 

[jkeny]

I know I'm reviving an old thread but I was looking into USB galvanic isolation & this is the only thread that mentions it.

The Opticics is too costly for me & I wondered if it (or something similar) could be done? What's inside the Opticics? How does it work? Any DIY versions?

 

[wwenze]

Optocoupler, think of SPDIF through optical vs coaxial. Think of the associated jitter with optical too.

I did have a DIYed cable that takes power from an wall-wart instead of the computer, for use with a USB-powered DAC. If only signal is required from USB, it's as easy as taping two pins on the connector. Then get the power from somewhere else.

 

[jkeny]

wwenze, I think most/all of the noise that originates in the PC comes through on the V+ & Ground lines. Can the differential uSB signals D+ & D- be left as straight through connections & the Ground & V+ be fed from an external source? Does this not effect the differential signal level not having the reference ground from the PC any more?

Soundcheck, you use an Opticics, have you looked inside? All signals go through opt-couplers?

 

[wwenze]

You already said it's a differential signal, so it does not need a common reference ground.

However i think this is pointless though, since any DAC with its own power supply will be using that to power the USB anyway instead of through the computer. I made the cable because something was causing my USB-powered DAC to crash so I decided to isolate its power from the computer. It still crashed though.

 

[jkeny]

wwenze, I called D+ & D- a differential signal but I'm not even sure that it truly is differential, are you? There is another mechanism at play in PCM27XX based DACs that needs to sense the Vbus as a connection signal & this would be effected by what I've suggested. I don't know if there are similar mechanisms in other DAC chips.

The point is that if the ground is still connected it acts as a conduit for the noisy PC ground to bleed through to the DAC

Have you done this? - D+ & D- connected directly to PC but not ground & VBus (taken these from external PS)?

 

[wwenze]

Yes I have done that - D+ D- connected to PC, VBus and ground taken from a power adapter. And that is a PCM270x based DAC.

 

[jkeny]

I'm back to this again - I'm afraid wwenze situation seems different from mine as he seemed to say that his DAC was powered by it's own supply & he only isolated the Vdd & gnd because of noise but this wasn't powering his DAC anyway.

So here's what I've done - I cut into the USB cable & pulled out the +5V & gnd wires (red & black), cut them. Left the PC side ones floating (& insulated) & connected the DAC side red to pos of a 5V battery & black to neg of this battery. Now my question - I connected the shield wire & foil straight through but didn't connect the battery ground to this. Before I connect to the DAC, I wanted to check it first.

Effectively I've isolated the Vdd & Gnd on the PC from the DAC - the only issue is the shield wire. Should I also cut the shield wire & connect it to the battery gnd or is it OK?

 

[berni8k]

Do NOT disconnect the gnd from the PC ! the D+ and D- signals are referenced to GND. Without a gnd it could float up to a high voltage along with the data lines and fry the USB port. If you are scared of noise on the gnd line at least connect the PCs GND trough a 10Ohm or so resistor.

Shield is supposed to be connected to ground at the PC side.

 

[jkeny]

Thanks Berni8k, I suspected that - but as wwenze says are D+ & - floating anyway or is there a compliance issue on these lines? So I should connect my battery ground to the ground from the PC & also the shield?

I asked this early in the thread about the Opticics & how it worked - is the PC ground connected straight through? - I thought it galvanically isolated the PC?

 

[glt]

Check this out: http://pinouts.ru/Slots/USB_pinout.shtml

 

[wwenze]

What you did is almost the same as what I did, except instead of connecting to a 5V battery I connected to an adapter. My DAC is USB-powered, think I mentioned that in my second post.

 

[jkeny]

Thanks glt, but does it answer the ground question? I'm still not sure whether differential signals need a reference - my logic says they don't but I don't want to risk a DAC or PC testing it.

Here's a quote which seems to answer it: http://www.beyondlogic.org/usbnutshell/usb2.htm

As we have discussed, USB uses a differential transmission pair for data. This is encoded using NRZI and is bit stuffed to ensure adequate transitions in the data stream. On low and full speed devices, a differential ‘1’ is transmitted by pulling D+ over 2.8V with a 15K ohm resistor pulled to ground and D- under 0.3V with a 1.5K ohm resistor pulled to 3.6V. A differential ‘0’ on the other hand is a D- greater than 2.8V and a D+ less than 0.3V with the same appropriate pull down/up resistors.

The receiver defines a differential ‘1’ as D+ 200mV greater than D- and a differential ‘0’ as D+ 200mV less than D-. The polarity of the signal is inverted depending on the speed of the bus. Therefore the terms ‘J’ and ‘K’ states are used in signifying the logic levels. In low speed a ‘J’ state is a differential 0. In high speed a ‘J’ state is a differential 1.

USB transceivers will have both differential and single ended outputs. Certain bus states are indicated by single ended signals on D+, D- or both. For example a single ended zero or SE0 can be used to signify a device reset if held for more than 10mS. A SE0 is generated by holding both D- and D+ low (< 0.3V). Single ended and differential outputs are important to note if you are using a transceiver and FPGA as your USB device. You cannot get away with sampling just the differential output.

This seems to say that both differential & SINGLE-ENDED signals are passed over D+ & D- so a gnd is needed in the SE case, I guess?

I was hoping somebody had trodden this path already.