I am using a PC for a source. However along with its many benefits it has some faults.
One of those being power supply noise which is appearent as noise floor through my speakers. Has anyone come up with a filter of some sorts?
Right now I am using an Antek NSK 2480, which is divided into chambers. I am using a PC Power and Cooling 350 Watt PS. I went with a smaller PS so I could load the PS a little more. When the CPU is being used you can audibly hear a difference in noise floor through the speakers. I am using a M-Audio Audiophile 192 analog out to a pair of PrimaLuna tube amps. I made custom RCA cables that are sheilded. I am also using a SSD as the only drive as well.
The PC is plugged into a Panamax 5100PM which intially helped reduce noise floor, but some is still audible.
Any sugeestions? I plan on switching to USB I2S here soon to see if that helps.
One of those being power supply noise which is appearent as noise floor through my speakers. Has anyone come up with a filter of some sorts?
Right now I am using an Antek NSK 2480, which is divided into chambers. I am using a PC Power and Cooling 350 Watt PS. I went with a smaller PS so I could load the PS a little more. When the CPU is being used you can audibly hear a difference in noise floor through the speakers. I am using a M-Audio Audiophile 192 analog out to a pair of PrimaLuna tube amps. I made custom RCA cables that are sheilded. I am also using a SSD as the only drive as well.
The PC is plugged into a Panamax 5100PM which intially helped reduce noise floor, but some is still audible.
Any sugeestions? I plan on switching to USB I2S here soon to see if that helps.
Give this a read and see if it helps, as I recall there is a section on power supplies.
http://imageevent.com/cics/v03theartofbuildingcomputertrnsp
Also look at what Peter Daniel is doing here:
"The output from a DAC used with Shigaclone is too low. Besides, I got seriously interested in PC as a source and I like to continue my research. There was discussion in other thread on that subject: "
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...863#post1689863
He is using a pico power supply which is quite interesting. Do a google search on pico PS and you will find what he is doing
http://imageevent.com/cics/v03theartofbuildingcomputertrnsp
Also look at what Peter Daniel is doing here:
"The output from a DAC used with Shigaclone is too low. Besides, I got seriously interested in PC as a source and I like to continue my research. There was discussion in other thread on that subject: "
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...863#post1689863
He is using a pico power supply which is quite interesting. Do a google search on pico PS and you will find what he is doing
Nice case, I run my music rig out of one too, and I use the Antec EarthWatts low-ripple 380 watt supply that comes with the case.
I was running the analog output of a Emu1212m straight to my amp and speakers, and now the Emu is only serving for coax output to a Buffalo DAC which in turn feeds the amp.
Noise floor improvements, in my case, have only come from the better Buffalo DAC.
I would suggest you start with power supply and motherboard that is suitable for audio. I can recommend Corsair VX450 or Antec Earthwatts 380 as a starting point, both are super low-ripple. Also ripple increases as the load increases, so a higher rated power supply is a slightly better bet. PCP&C aren't known for low ripple.
For the motherboard, I like Intel original boards because they implement separate power regulation for the PCI slots. Some other manufacturers do, but it is not very clear who. My Asus M2A-VM does not have the necessary power regulators, but since the power supply ripple is supposed to be low (reviews) I do not have a problem with noise while the CPU is used. The difference is of course noticeable when I listen to some recordings at high volume, where the Buffalo sounds noticeably cleaner. Again, that is a difference of the DAC itself, IMO.
Finally, I severely modded the analog stage of the 1212m, with new opamps, caps and voltage regulators for the DAC. Panasonic FM for bypass and decoupling, Black Gate NX in signal path. The improvements were not subtle.
The best way to get the audio out of the PC would either be Firewire or custom USB solutions (not Plug and Play like PCM27xx series).
I was running the analog output of a Emu1212m straight to my amp and speakers, and now the Emu is only serving for coax output to a Buffalo DAC which in turn feeds the amp.
Noise floor improvements, in my case, have only come from the better Buffalo DAC.
I would suggest you start with power supply and motherboard that is suitable for audio. I can recommend Corsair VX450 or Antec Earthwatts 380 as a starting point, both are super low-ripple. Also ripple increases as the load increases, so a higher rated power supply is a slightly better bet. PCP&C aren't known for low ripple.
For the motherboard, I like Intel original boards because they implement separate power regulation for the PCI slots. Some other manufacturers do, but it is not very clear who. My Asus M2A-VM does not have the necessary power regulators, but since the power supply ripple is supposed to be low (reviews) I do not have a problem with noise while the CPU is used. The difference is of course noticeable when I listen to some recordings at high volume, where the Buffalo sounds noticeably cleaner. Again, that is a difference of the DAC itself, IMO.
Finally, I severely modded the analog stage of the 1212m, with new opamps, caps and voltage regulators for the DAC. Panasonic FM for bypass and decoupling, Black Gate NX in signal path. The improvements were not subtle.
The best way to get the audio out of the PC would either be Firewire or custom USB solutions (not Plug and Play like PCM27xx series).
I have the original Antec that came with the case and it was worse in noise floor than the PPC&C. I'll try it again (I dont think I treid it with the combination of the Panamax)
I am using an Intel DG33TL because they are more stable than the rest... my other thought would be a Mini-ITX Via Epia (C7 processor) build which I may tryout since I can have the power supply external to the case...
In my build its actually a lower noise floor when the CPU is being used... if its idle the noise floor is much more readily appearent.
Thats awesome news about the buffalo because I am in process of buiding one... I got half the parts now just waiting for the next set of buffalo boards... maybe I'll hold out until they implement the 9018 .. not sure...
The custom USB or firewire is above the scope and my ability level unles someone develops a DIY kit... I am going to us the 27** serires for USB I2S....
Would SPDIF be better out of the M-Audio at that point? I'll probably try both anyway but I would love to hear opinions/experiences on the matter...
I am using an Intel DG33TL because they are more stable than the rest... my other thought would be a Mini-ITX Via Epia (C7 processor) build which I may tryout since I can have the power supply external to the case...
In my build its actually a lower noise floor when the CPU is being used... if its idle the noise floor is much more readily appearent.
Thats awesome news about the buffalo because I am in process of buiding one... I got half the parts now just waiting for the next set of buffalo boards... maybe I'll hold out until they implement the 9018 .. not sure...
The custom USB or firewire is above the scope and my ability level unles someone develops a DIY kit... I am going to us the 27** serires for USB I2S....
Would SPDIF be better out of the M-Audio at that point? I'll probably try both anyway but I would love to hear opinions/experiences on the matter...
HaLo6 said:
I am not an expert but have been following a number of threads on using a PC as source for a couple years. Most all recommend using USB DAC's I started with a PC running Win XP and in the last year moved to a Linux environment following the advice in this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93315
Linux Audio the way to go? It is now a long thread, but the recommendations are contained in a WIKI here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/wiki/index.php?page=Digital+Sources
It is more involved to setup, but for me the results were worth the effort.
Can you explain abit more about what you meant by noise floor you heard from your speaker? The SMPS used in computer has very high switching frequency noise which will not show up as audible noise. However, if you are using the analog section of the sound card, there are many factors that can cause audible noise, even if your sond crad is placed too close to the AC line will cause that.
In my PC setup, I am using RME HDSP 9652 with ADAT out in digital. I use an external DAC. This way, I can elimnate all noise from the PC, there there is no issue of grounding problem as well.
In my PC setup, I am using RME HDSP 9652 with ADAT out in digital. I use an external DAC. This way, I can elimnate all noise from the PC, there there is no issue of grounding problem as well.
I am using the analog out of the M-Audio. The noise coming out my speakers is a slight hiss. Its only audible if I put my head next to the speaker... but we are all here at this forum b/c everyone is an audio perfectionist... Now the audio card is next to the PS but it is separated by a metal panel. Its in the only slot it can go in, (their is only one PCI slot on the DG33TL). Maybe thats the issue... if using USB I2S out wll solve this then I will look no further...
I think the Antecs usually come with good quality power supplies. When I was looking for a case I settled on the Antec fussion. The Earthworks PSU I have seen reviewed and compares favourably with aftermarket PSU. Antec do use a made for them version, but the internals looked identical to the eathrworks.
Personally I use a DDDAC 1543 Dac on my main system, and dont notice any hum etc. I wonder if the noise you are getting is the sound card picking up EMI from other components in the case. Off board is easier to control for EMI. When I was testing my DDDAC uncased I got pretty poor sound quality from it.
I have sitting beside me a Y1 (Gamma 1) DAC that I just bought from Ti Khan at AMB labs I am looking forward to getting it assembled and tested. It is going to be my DAC for my eee PC 901.
Personally I use a DDDAC 1543 Dac on my main system, and dont notice any hum etc. I wonder if the noise you are getting is the sound card picking up EMI from other components in the case. Off board is easier to control for EMI. When I was testing my DDDAC uncased I got pretty poor sound quality from it.
I have sitting beside me a Y1 (Gamma 1) DAC that I just bought from Ti Khan at AMB labs I am looking forward to getting it assembled and tested. It is going to be my DAC for my eee PC 901.
It's probably just the noise floor you are hearing. If I put my ears right up next to my tweeters I can hear hiss. But that has to be way way down there - like -90dB. Anywhere from as loud as -80dB can be considered normal and you probably only get about -60dB with vinyl. Some solid state gear will state 112dB on there specs but this is only in ideal situations.
You should not be using the Windows volume control at all, you'll be losing resolution that way. Set your media player to output through ASIO (Foobar and Winamp both do this with plugins), and run the monitor out at max volume. You're probably losing more information by cutting the volume down, than from that tiny noise floor.
With my ear up against the tweeter, I can hear a very slight hiss. It's not an issue whatsoever. As long as it sounds clean (as close to white noise as possible) and it doesn't increase with volume while the card is not playing anything, you'll be fine.
With my ear up against the tweeter, I can hear a very slight hiss. It's not an issue whatsoever. As long as it sounds clean (as close to white noise as possible) and it doesn't increase with volume while the card is not playing anything, you'll be fine.
Low noise FAN and PSU for Audio PC
Hello, I'm Japanese Audio PC "WOTAKU".
How about these joke?
http://www.teddigital.com/serv01.htm
http://www.teddigital.com/serv02.htm
http://www.teddigital.com/prx092.htm
http://www.teddigital.com/prx02.htm
http://www.teddigital.com/prx04.htm
http://www.teddigital.com/prod02clife.htm
And I measured these FAN noise 96kHz24bit wave file.
You can see ultrasonic FAN noise.
http://www.moon.sannet.ne.jp/f-wataru/seion22.htm
** Sorry not English page
These units that looks like CD Player, these are Audio PCs I made.
http://www.teddigital.com/prod01.htm
Hello, I'm Japanese Audio PC "WOTAKU".
How about these joke?
http://www.teddigital.com/serv01.htm
http://www.teddigital.com/serv02.htm
http://www.teddigital.com/prx092.htm
http://www.teddigital.com/prx02.htm
http://www.teddigital.com/prx04.htm
http://www.teddigital.com/prod02clife.htm
And I measured these FAN noise 96kHz24bit wave file.
You can see ultrasonic FAN noise.
http://www.moon.sannet.ne.jp/f-wataru/seion22.htm
** Sorry not English page
These units that looks like CD Player, these are Audio PCs I made.
http://www.teddigital.com/prod01.htm
Attachments
I would invest in a new Power supply.
There are many 'silent' PC supply.
Not too expensive.
Fan should be big.
There are even advanced fan-less supplies ...
FanLess PC Supply
PC supplies are not as clean as audio supply.
There can be switching noise.
I would not as first choice supply amplifiers using PC supply.
There are many 'silent' PC supply.
Not too expensive.
Fan should be big.
There are even advanced fan-less supplies ...
FanLess PC Supply
PC supplies are not as clean as audio supply.
There can be switching noise.
I would not as first choice supply amplifiers using PC supply.
FAN Less PC and Arrhenius equation
I am using FAN Less PSU Deltatronic 420W SPS420, which filled up a gel for radiant heat electric capacitors inside PSU box.
http://www.teddigital.com/prod02clife.htm
http://www.deltatronic.de/pd/index.html
And I am using low noise FAN for long life my Audio PC mother board,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrhenius_equation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor
I am using FAN Less PSU Deltatronic 420W SPS420, which filled up a gel for radiant heat electric capacitors inside PSU box.
http://www.teddigital.com/prod02clife.htm
http://www.deltatronic.de/pd/index.html
And I am using low noise FAN for long life my Audio PC mother board,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrhenius_equation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor
http://www.teddigital.com/serv03.htm
This jitter measurement is Deltatronic SPS420 that switchng power supply and RME 96/8 pst S/PDIF Digital transmitt Audio PC and compare with fix-type laser picup unit mechanism CD transport with non switchng type linear power supply.
This jitter measurement is Deltatronic SPS420 that switchng power supply and RME 96/8 pst S/PDIF Digital transmitt Audio PC and compare with fix-type laser picup unit mechanism CD transport with non switchng type linear power supply.
Vista vs. Kmixer
I tried ASIO using the M-audio drivers... I am using albumplayer which supports ASIO but I lose volume control then ... right now I am not using any preamp...
I am going to try ASIO4ALL and see if that makes a difference and I gain volume control. I thought Vista volume control and exclusive mode didn't degrade audio information like Kmixer did
I tried ASIO using the M-audio drivers... I am using albumplayer which supports ASIO but I lose volume control then ... right now I am not using any preamp...
I am going to try ASIO4ALL and see if that makes a difference and I gain volume control. I thought Vista volume control and exclusive mode didn't degrade audio information like Kmixer did
M-audio drivers support ASIO so you should be able to still control the volume from the driver mixer panel.
Um well that is unless those are the new drivers. I get full volume with multichannel ASIO on the new drivers bypassing the volume controls.
I know what he was saying about loosing digital resolution but really it can be a trade off. I have used m-audio's delta 1010 with the outputs in +4 mode. I will usually have the digital volume anywhere from -15dB and higher. This is because I use active monitors with a nominal gain setting on the monitors amps (the knobs lock in place at 12 oclock).
Sometimes using -10dB outputs and setting it to full volume is perfect. But for needledrops, older CDs, and softer sources it's too soft.
I'd rather not put an analog pad inbetween my soundcard and the monitor inputs so I just use the digital volume.
My new card - Mackie 400f - has an analog pad built in to the stereo monitor outputs. This is so you can keep digital at full volume and then turn down the feed to the active monitors. This is a decent feature for stereo but I work in Multichannel so the feature goes unused.
It's a tradeoff I guess. Lower digital volume technically gives you less digital resolution while an analog pad will add a little bit of noise.
Um well that is unless those are the new drivers. I get full volume with multichannel ASIO on the new drivers bypassing the volume controls.
I know what he was saying about loosing digital resolution but really it can be a trade off. I have used m-audio's delta 1010 with the outputs in +4 mode. I will usually have the digital volume anywhere from -15dB and higher. This is because I use active monitors with a nominal gain setting on the monitors amps (the knobs lock in place at 12 oclock).
Sometimes using -10dB outputs and setting it to full volume is perfect. But for needledrops, older CDs, and softer sources it's too soft.
I'd rather not put an analog pad inbetween my soundcard and the monitor inputs so I just use the digital volume.
My new card - Mackie 400f - has an analog pad built in to the stereo monitor outputs. This is so you can keep digital at full volume and then turn down the feed to the active monitors. This is a decent feature for stereo but I work in Multichannel so the feature goes unused.
It's a tradeoff I guess. Lower digital volume technically gives you less digital resolution while an analog pad will add a little bit of noise.
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