A comments of Sabre32 architecture
How do you feel about this bitter comment on our Sabre32 DAC?
What about 32 bit DACs
(Doubtless, their DAC is high-end enough. I listened Diamond Platinum IV-DAC with USB2 interface last weekend. It played 352.8 kHz/24 bit sources without any problems.)
How do you feel about this bitter comment on our Sabre32 DAC?
What about 32 bit DACs
(Doubtless, their DAC is high-end enough. I listened Diamond Platinum IV-DAC with USB2 interface last weekend. It played 352.8 kHz/24 bit sources without any problems.)
It is quite obvious that they have not investigated the Sabre32 in the depth as the most of their statements are far from correct
I believe the strengths of the Sabre32 are their weakness and vice versa...
I think its a desperate post by desperate people that are losing customers to people buying sabre dacs. only people that are not confident enough in their own product would bother to publish such made up nonsense to discredit another company. they rely on people not having the technical savvy to look up the white paper themselves for the whole story, but instead read these totally out of context crazy talk. I guess they forget or do not know that in fact the sabre is many chips in parallel.
the MSB gear is nice, I have heard a few as my friend is a rep for them here in brissie, but the price..... so high they have to string superlatives together to name things as diamond platinum IV DAC, what are they going to call the next upgrade? what is more valuable than these 2 materials?
lame duck.....
the MSB gear is nice, I have heard a few as my friend is a rep for them here in brissie, but the price..... so high they have to string superlatives together to name things as diamond platinum IV DAC, what are they going to call the next upgrade? what is more valuable than these 2 materials?
lame duck.....
Almost everything they have written are wrong and missleading...
Even the whitepaper they have linked to are for the old Sabre DACs like the ES9006 and ES9008, and are NOT representative for the Sabre32...
aha, I didnt bother to follow the link they included, thats actually quite funny!! 
I wonder if they will be hearing from ESS lawyers, especially as they even use the sabre32 logo on the webpage. really not very well thought through, the whole thing, thats why it seems so desperate 
I wonder if they will be hearing from ESS lawyers, especially as they even use the sabre32 logo on the webpage. really not very well thought through, the whole thing, thats why it seems so desperate
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I borrowed the Fidelix Caprice (the first Japanese made DAC using the SABRE 9018) from Fidelix proprietor Nakagawa-san last weekend and brought it to a wealthy friend's million dollar/euro system which in fact sound as good or better than the price tag suggest (usually not the case). Multiple speaker systems: (1) Wilson Audio X-1 (Grand Slam), (2) an extremely elaborate & grande seven-way multi-amped system based around JBL, Electrovoice, ATR etc drivers, and, (3) a string instrument-bodied stacked array speaker system. This friend also has top of the line dCs equipment and a lot of professional gear as well. Pre/power amps are top of the line FM Acoustic, Cello, Mark Levinson etc. He also has an enviable music collection on vinyl, CD, SACD, as well as computer files. We played both CD and computer audio files (WAV) (Macbok Pro with M2Tech Evo run from Lithium Battery.) We were three audiophiles/audio professionals, including the host. We bypassed the preamp/volume section of the Caprice and played a variety of tracks including classical, jazz, and popular music. Although we did not attempt a comparison of other DACs, including alternative DACs with SABRE 9018, we got conclusive results that the Fidelix Caprice with SABRE 9018 used as a pure DAC was able to bringing this super high end system to its full potential. This is despite that the Fidelix Caprice sells for only (ca.) US$1900 in Japan. I do not write this to promote the Fidelix Caprice in particular (it is currently only made for Japanese market spec), but rather to report the potential of the SABRE 9018 in an optimal application.
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Came across the Sabre32 bash on the MSB site a few months back when it was brought up in another forum. My conclusion was they are either:
A. Intentianally trying to mislead people about the DAC technology they dont really know anything of (except what was decided to be put into the white paper) Hoenstly, do you think ESS would really spill all the details in the whitepaper?
or
B. They have no idea what they are talking about.
Bottom line is MSB makes the claim that noise shapeing is no good (for DAC's). However dig a bit further on their website and see how they make ADC's..
Either way, no point arguing, its just "funny" to me.
Dustin
A. Intentianally trying to mislead people about the DAC technology they dont really know anything of (except what was decided to be put into the white paper) Hoenstly, do you think ESS would really spill all the details in the whitepaper?
or
B. They have no idea what they are talking about.
Bottom line is MSB makes the claim that noise shapeing is no good (for DAC's). However dig a bit further on their website and see how they make ADC's..
Either way, no point arguing, its just "funny" to me.
Dustin
It is just sour grapes !!
When you look at the ridiculous prices they are charging for their own gear of course they are going to bag it !!
If it was as bad as what they say it is then how do they account for these measurements ??
http://www.anedio.com/index.php/product/d1_measure
How many people have listened a true 32 bit sound?
I do feel firm confidence in superior sound quality of ES9018 and have no doubt on its 32 bit architecture.
At the same time, I have a simple question.
How many people have ever listened a true 32 bit sound?
In my case, I have once applied 192 kHz/32 bit PCM data via I2S. However, the data was just created by upsampling 192 kHz/24 bit PCM with r8brain program. It was not a true 32 bit sound.
How are audiophiles exploiting 32 bit capability of ES9018 and how can they describe the true 32 bit sound?
I do feel firm confidence in superior sound quality of ES9018 and have no doubt on its 32 bit architecture.
At the same time, I have a simple question.
How many people have ever listened a true 32 bit sound?
In my case, I have once applied 192 kHz/32 bit PCM data via I2S. However, the data was just created by upsampling 192 kHz/24 bit PCM with r8brain program. It was not a true 32 bit sound.
How are audiophiles exploiting 32 bit capability of ES9018 and how can they describe the true 32 bit sound?
How are audiophiles exploiting 32 bit capability of ES9018 and how can they describe the true 32 bit sound?[/QUOTE said:I would be very interested in this as well.
In perspective, only recently has 24 bit source material become commercially available on a limited basis. 99% of my existing collection is 16 bit, and while I hope that some of that material will be re-released at higher resolution, there remains another issue. Regrettably IMHO, the recording process for the vast majority of commercially released music is not up to the standards of most audiophiles. ...certainly not those of us who are enjoying the ES9018... Reproducing recording and engineering flaws at higher resolution does not increase my personal enjoyment of the music! The logical conclusions are that, a) as with the musical performances themselves, technical flaws are an inescapable part of recorded music and b) the only reason to customize my system for 32 bit sources would be to improve the sound of the music I produce myself. THAT material is flawed in every way EXCEPT resolution!
Cheers,
Frank in Mpls.
Qusp, Good for you! Playing in Logic (the program) seems like a natural extension of DIY. My Buffalo II/Legato implementation of ES9018 is not running from my Mac. When I downsample files to 24 bits and port them to the Buffalo DAC I am sometimes disappointed that there is less 'space around the instruments'. Things that I create to sound 'multi-layered' can begin to sound 'flattened'.
Bunpei, the auditory impression of 32->24 bit conversion is (for me) a 'loss of space'.
Best,
Frank in Mpls.
Bunpei, the auditory impression of 32->24 bit conversion is (for me) a 'loss of space'.
Best,
Frank in Mpls.
funny, for me it was the other way around, playing with DIY audio was a natural extension of making tunes on my mac in logic. its possible that your mixdown is flattening the sound too, unless you have an EQ strip and some small amount of compression on the single channels, when you mix it down the layers do tend to flatten, because they have been forced to coexist in the same 'space' rather than in the multichannel format of logic.
your comment still holds true, but something to think about
Dear Frank,
Would you tell us how you play your 32 bit tunes from your Mac?
Do you use a TI-BB PCM1795 or AK AKM4399-based DAC or others to play the tunes in a bit-perfect manner?
Bunpei
Greetings Bunpei,
I believe my observations are worthwhile but I don't claim that the reverse situation, when adding 8 bits to a signal, would necessarily have the opposite effect. I look forward to actual reports on that question. I have been curious to read reports that the trident shunt regulators for BII seem to improve the soundstage and 'space', so those sensations may not be a direct effect of bit depth.
Also, my suggestion does not focus on the particular DACs involved. I am only convinced of hearing full resolution when playing music within the Logic program and using the onboard DAC. "Bit perfect" is not a useful concept here because there may be 15-20 tracks combining MIDI (32 bit) and analog (24 bit) information, all of which are mixed using a complicated array of sub-processors. The attached image is an example screenshot of the mixing panel from a recent project. Each blue button in the bottom 60% of the screenshot is some kind of processor. As Qusp points out, the decay in sound quality that I notice when porting to my BII/Legato could probably be improved if I were more skilled in mixing.
Finally, let me add this comment to my complaint above about bad sound engineering. When it IS good, with the ES9018 it's REALLY good! For example, I have heard the Minnesota Orchestra play Rimsky-Korsakov's Snow Maiden in their concert hall. The 96kHz/24bit recorded version (from HDTracks) sounds better at home! There is no distracting audience noise and the microphone placements were better than the location of my seat.
Cheers,
Frank/Mpls.
