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Old 14th July 2006, 03:33 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by BobEllis


That was my point - save time and energy using a finishing sander, but take a few minutes with a block to remove random orbit swirls. That should get you up to the level you get by hand.
I see, yes great advice. I'll definitely give that a try on the top section of the speaker that I'll be doing over the weekend and post the results.
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Old 14th July 2006, 04:30 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by BobEllis
There will always be a bit of orange peel. Good guns and proper adjustments (gun and finish viscosity) will minimize it, but it will be there.

No sprayed finish will look as good as what Shin showed us without a proper rubout. It's just a matter of where you start. You can get worse orange peel from a spray can and with elbow grease and patience end up with a nice mirror finish. Balance the cost of equipment needed (and likely further use) against the value of your time.
I tend to strongly disagree with the statement about the orange peel. I've painted cars and finished furniture for the last 28 years.

Oh by the way, that is a beautiful finish on those boxes.

The most common cause of orange peel is poor paint atomizing, but even with a mediocre gun you can still achieve fantastic results.
Poor atomizing is the result of the wrong cap for the paint leading to improper atomizing. Wrong viscosity, the paint needs to be reduced down to allow it to flow, very weather dependent also. Wrong cap pressure for the gun. For the HVLP guns, this is the most common culprit. The gun needs to be adjusted for the correct pressure at the CAP and most people do not have the equipment to check this, so they adjust the gauge at the handle of the gun.

Most paint manufactures can tell you what the cap size for your gun should be for the paint you are using. They can also recommend the reduction for the temperatures you are running. The paint flow is something you'll have to learn by practice.

What happens is that the paint tends to begin drying as soon as it leaves the gun. Too much atomization and the paint tends to dry before it hits the surface. Too little atomization and some of the paint will dry faster than the rest. The paint that tends to improperly atomize falls as bigger droplets and does not level properly. The drier paint tends to push the wet paint away as the solvents escape.

Use a practice piece to setup your gun, HVLP guns are much harder to learn than the old style as they are designed to sling a lot of material so you have to move quickly to avoid laying down too much material, which also causes orange peel. Once you figure out your gun and the material you are spraying, you'll be very happy with the results.

Most of us will still have to do a little elbow work to obtain a mirror finish, but the best finish always comes out of the gun. If you can get to the non sanding mode, you'll love the results.
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Old 14th July 2006, 09:41 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dryseals
I tend to strongly disagree with the statement about the orange peel. I've painted cars and finished furniture for the last 28 years.
Hi

Most people who will attempt this won't be using proffessional spray equipment, infact most won't even be using a cheap compressor and gun. What they'll use instead is cans and every can *will* give you orange peel no matter how good you are.

I think its somewhat misleading to say you can get zero orange peel and not have to bother with the sanding. Some folks may read that and try to do it, fail and then be put off.

The results always come from finishing but the spraying is important too.

Quote:
Use a practice piece to setup your gun, HVLP guns are much harder to learn than the old style as they are designed to sling a lot of material so you have to move quickly to avoid laying down too much material, which also causes orange peel. Once you figure out your gun and the material you are spraying, you'll be very happy with the results.

Most of us will still have to do a little elbow work to obtain a mirror finish, but the best finish always comes out of the gun. If you can get to the non sanding mode, you'll love the results. [/B]
You'll aways have to sand some amount to get a decent reflection. I do agree that you can near eliminate the orange peel but you need to build up many coats to get a really deep and three dimensional reflection. Doing that with 10+ coats and not sanding inbetween or at the end and achieving something like what I've shown is near impossible and not worth attempting unless you like failure.

Stay sensible and get something that you can be pleased with and is accessable to anyone with the inclination.
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Old 14th July 2006, 10:59 PM   #14
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i didn't realize that most people would use "cans" -- I am on my second compressor -- it's helpful to get the charcoal going for those summer barbecues -- surprised that we haven't burnt out the bottom of the Weber.

Aren't cans of finish dreadfully expenive -- if I didn't have access to a compressor I would try french polish for a very nice finish.

your work is really excellent -- there is no mistaking that !

i do some consulting to a "coatings" company but our production runs are thousands of units of CNC'd MDF -- when you coat them you have to be spot on the humidity and temperature. if you have an orange-peel problem, or an adhesion problem you can blow the entire profitability of a run in just a few minutes of inattention.
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Old 14th July 2006, 11:07 PM   #15
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Hi,

The typical padding on those types of sanders isn't the best for cutting down the orange peal as it has so much conformity. Your finish is deep but it looks a little wavy as a result. Hold up a piece of white thread to it, stretched out.. it'll show up.

Why not start off with a 600 grit and block sand by hand to cut down the peaks, shouldn't take too long.

Then work up to 2000, also block sanding.

Use lots of water! The dish soap tip is an excellent one, really helps the cutting action too.

Had you ever considered a coat of carnuba wax after? Might help from keeping the dust from getting too attached, and could be of some help when some goof puts their cold beer on it when you're not looking.
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Old 15th July 2006, 01:33 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by classd4sure
The typical padding on those types of sanders isn't the best for cutting down the orange peal as it has so much conformity. Your finish is deep but it looks a little wavy as a result. Hold up a piece of white thread to it, stretched out.. it'll show up.
Hi C4S

Yep the best finish is always by hand. I still can't get it perfect but using a sanding block and roughly 400% more time and effort I can get a good uniform reflection. The thing you've got to remember is that I wanted something that looks good but doesn't take a week or three to do. If you skip the palm sander and substitute hand sanding, the rest is the same. Pick whichever suits.

I stuck a bitumen pad on the bottom of the sander to firm it up but not too much, it does improve the finish a little but lets face it, your never going to get a perfect finish with a palm sander anyway but more than close enough. The photo's pick up every fault in the finish unfortunately but rest assured that they look superb in the flesh.

Quote:
Had you ever considered a coat of carnuba wax after? Might help from keeping the dust from getting too attached, and could be of some help when some goof puts their cold beer on it when you're not looking.
I use the Carlack 2 stage protection stuff which gives a nice gloss and eliminates the very fine swirl marks left over. Its better than Carnuba IMO because it offers more protection and shines about as well once you've applied both the acrylic wax and sealer.
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Old 15th July 2006, 01:38 AM   #17
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Good stuff thanks for the reply, and it really is an awesome looking deep finish. Sorry if I missed it, but how long did it take? You'd really have to be a little insane to want to do it by hand, so it's great to see it can turn out so well by speeding things up a little.

On that note, I wonder if anyone would be crazy enough to try a nice flat hard air file with the 2000 grit as opposed to an orbital... best of both worlds or total nightmare? Could be hell if it got away from ya!

Cheers,
Chris
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Old 15th July 2006, 01:47 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by jackinnj
i didn't realize that most people would use "cans" -- I am on my second compressor -- it's helpful to get the charcoal going for those summer barbecues -- surprised that we haven't burnt out the bottom of the Weber.

Aren't cans of finish dreadfully expenive -- if I didn't have access to a compressor I would try french polish for a very nice finish.
Spray cans are a rip off but convenient, they're around 5 each in the UK for 500ml. You can buy 1.5ltr of good quality basecoat for 12 and it goes further.

I think everyone starts off with spraycans and then maybe moves on to a compressor if they feel it would be a sound investment.

Quote:
your work is really excellent -- there is no mistaking that !
Thanks

Quote:
i do some consulting to a "coatings" company but our production runs are thousands of units of CNC'd MDF -- when you coat them you have to be spot on the humidity and temperature. if you have an orange-peel problem, or an adhesion problem you can blow the entire profitability of a run in just a few minutes of inattention. [/B]
Wouldn't like to be in charge of the buttons on that machine
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Old 15th July 2006, 01:59 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by classd4sure
[B]Good stuff thanks for the reply, and it really is an awesome looking deep finish. Sorry if I missed it, but how long did it take? You'd really have to be a little insane to want to do it by hand, so it's great to see it can turn out so well by speeding things up a little.
Hi Chris

From start to finish it was about 5 maybe 6 hours spread over 2 days for that whole cabinet part. The sanding took around one and half hours and the rest was taken up by the cutting compound and polishing which is slow and painful when doing it by hand, I do have a variable speed polisher but prefer by hand. I still haven't applied the wax and sealant stuff yet because I like to do that once the cabinets are in place and assembled with no more handling, its maybe another 30 minutes tops for that. I also tend to work fairly slowly so I'm sure it could be done more quickly.

Quote:
On that note, I wonder if anyone would be crazy enough to try a nice flat hard air file with the 2000 grit as opposed to an orbital... best of both worlds or total nightmare? Could be hell if it got away from ya!
Please post pics if you try it!
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Old 15th July 2006, 03:59 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShinOBIWAN


Hi

Most people who will attempt this won't be using proffessional spray equipment, infact most won't even be using a cheap compressor and gun. What they'll use instead is cans and every can *will* give you orange peel no matter how good you are.

I think its somewhat misleading to say you can get zero orange peel and not have to bother with the sanding. Some folks may read that and try to do it, fail and then be put off.

The results always come from finishing but the spraying is important too.



You'll aways have to sand some amount to get a decent reflection. I do agree that you can near eliminate the orange peel but you need to build up many coats to get a really deep and three dimensional reflection. Doing that with 10+ coats and not sanding inbetween or at the end and achieving something like what I've shown is near impossible and not worth attempting unless you like failure.

Stay sensible and get something that you can be pleased with and is accessable to anyone with the inclination.
If you are using cans, ignore anything I wrote. I would never try to achieve that kind of finish with cans, far, far, far too much work.

I like to use automotive paints, here in the US we can pick them up for a reasonable price. This requires the use of a compressor and a gun, but the amount of work to achieve the same finish is a fraction of what you are doing.

For a home speaker I'll use a cheap primer, the same thing you are getting in a can at a much reduced price. I use DuPont Paints but other manufacturers will work as well. The primers are usually fairly cheap. Dupont will not allow posted prices so we'll do Sherwin Williams.
http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/pr...t=3706&cat=115
and
http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/pr...ct=905&cat=115

Gives you almost two gallons of primer, most paint suppliers can supply in smaller quantities. These primers will dry very, very fast and can be sanded with in a few minutes, depending on how heavy you spray them. They will also build up quickly to hide any imperfections.

Cover with a quick Acrylic Enamel
http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/pr...t=2245&cat=146

And you can buff that to a very deep shine and if you want a deep shine, toss some clear
http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/pr...t=1188&cat=124

Granted, these prices seem high, but most of your paint shops will mix them in any size you want, plus there are other brands that are far cheaper and will give you fantastic results. Add up the cost of the paint cans and the amount of time you spend sanding and a small compressor and a cheap gun can and you could be way ahead.

I'm working on several sets of speakers now, The ones for the shop I think I will paint black and post the results with just the single stage black, no sanding and no clear. They will not be as perfect as yours, but it may give folks like me, too lazy to do all that work, something to shoot for.
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