I have what may seem like a rather odd question. I've recently taken a shine to the idea of building new speakers and in particular speaker cabinets. My background in electronics is minimal, but I like to do some woodworking as a weekend hobby, and this seems a good way of bringing together two of my hobbies (woodworking and music).
I'm currently in the process constructing a new set of cabinets for an old set of Realistic MC-2001 speakers. I'm curious to hear the difference that a stiffer cabinet can make (the old cabinets are thin and highly resonant), and want to play around with techniques relating to speaker construction. It's been an interesting project, though I'm only about half way through. In the process of thinking about cabinet design I may have developed an interesting idea for constructing internal braces. I'm still playing around with the idea, but it seems intriguing, at least to me. Here's my question.
If I were to post pictures and plans for constructing such braces, who would hold the copyright? My main motive here is simply to help the DIY community and to try and limit the idea to people's personal use (assuming it actually turns out to be any good, of course). So how does this kind of thing work? What kinds of protections would be in place here? I have read the terms of agreement for the site, but does that mean the site owners would be able to use my idea (or anyone else's for that matter) for monetary gain?
Any comments and clarifications would be more than welcome.
Thanks.
p.s. I've been a lurker here for a few years now, but recently decided to join the community as a way of trying to learn more about speakers and speaker building.
I'm currently in the process constructing a new set of cabinets for an old set of Realistic MC-2001 speakers. I'm curious to hear the difference that a stiffer cabinet can make (the old cabinets are thin and highly resonant), and want to play around with techniques relating to speaker construction. It's been an interesting project, though I'm only about half way through. In the process of thinking about cabinet design I may have developed an interesting idea for constructing internal braces. I'm still playing around with the idea, but it seems intriguing, at least to me. Here's my question.
If I were to post pictures and plans for constructing such braces, who would hold the copyright? My main motive here is simply to help the DIY community and to try and limit the idea to people's personal use (assuming it actually turns out to be any good, of course). So how does this kind of thing work? What kinds of protections would be in place here? I have read the terms of agreement for the site, but does that mean the site owners would be able to use my idea (or anyone else's for that matter) for monetary gain?
Any comments and clarifications would be more than welcome.
Thanks.
p.s. I've been a lurker here for a few years now, but recently decided to join the community as a way of trying to learn more about speakers and speaker building.
Hi, pretty much the only way you can protect your idea (if it is new and unique) is to patent it. However IF you have already disclosed the idea publicly (via this forum or other means) then I believe that that patent application will almost certainly fail.
You hold the copyright to any images you post. That right is just to the image itself, not to the idea. With respect to the forum the TOS states you grant diyAudio a non-exclusive right to use that image (again emphasis on image). It is not the idea encompassed by the image.
If you have any thoughts about comercialising the idea you probably should talk to a patent lawyer before you post anything
Tony.
You hold the copyright to any images you post. That right is just to the image itself, not to the idea. With respect to the forum the TOS states you grant diyAudio a non-exclusive right to use that image (again emphasis on image). It is not the idea encompassed by the image.
If you have any thoughts about comercialising the idea you probably should talk to a patent lawyer before you post anything
Tony.
I think that 'copyright' has more protect than just the image.
Copyright - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But at the end of the day, all it may allow you to do is sue an infringer.
Copyright - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But at the end of the day, all it may allow you to do is sue an infringer.
The details of how copyright and other IP rights work vary from one legal jurisdiction to another. Broadly, the US uses patents as the main protection while Europe uses copyright (but is moving towards the US position, I believe). Some countries (and some companies/people) only pay lip service to IP rights. The only guaranteed way to protect an idea is to keep it to yourself.
Generally the way it is supposed to work is that a Patent protects an idea, Copyright protects against copying a document.
So for example the idea of a balanced input stage using bootstrapping to raise the common mode impedance is something that is apparently patentable (I know because there is a patent), where a manual for an amplifier might be protected by copyright.
Note that there is no protection of the circuit inherent in the copyright, only of that particular rendering of the circuit, if I reverse engineer a board and draw my own circuit diagram from what I discover then nothing stops me publishing that diagram (Or in fact laying out my own board from that diagram and selling units). Protecting the circuit itself is what patents are (theoretically) for.
In practise patents are tools used by big companies to beat each other up in court, the game is far too expensive for a small company to want to play.
Besides, in practise ideas are ten a penny, the work is in turning the idea into a product.
Regards, Dan.
So for example the idea of a balanced input stage using bootstrapping to raise the common mode impedance is something that is apparently patentable (I know because there is a patent), where a manual for an amplifier might be protected by copyright.
Note that there is no protection of the circuit inherent in the copyright, only of that particular rendering of the circuit, if I reverse engineer a board and draw my own circuit diagram from what I discover then nothing stops me publishing that diagram (Or in fact laying out my own board from that diagram and selling units). Protecting the circuit itself is what patents are (theoretically) for.
In practise patents are tools used by big companies to beat each other up in court, the game is far too expensive for a small company to want to play.
Besides, in practise ideas are ten a penny, the work is in turning the idea into a product.
Regards, Dan.
Excellent points, everyone. Thanks.
I love the participatory, democratic spirit of this kind of forum, where people share ideas constructively simply from a love of what they do. It's very admirable and I think it should be encouraged.
When I get a working model of my internal brace idea built I'll post it here so people can use it (or some variation of it) if they wish. That is, after all, what a forum like this is supposed to be all about.
Thanks again.
I love the participatory, democratic spirit of this kind of forum, where people share ideas constructively simply from a love of what they do. It's very admirable and I think it should be encouraged.
When I get a working model of my internal brace idea built I'll post it here so people can use it (or some variation of it) if they wish. That is, after all, what a forum like this is supposed to be all about.
Thanks again.
This is interesting. I have similar questions.
As you all may have noticed that DIY speaker designers put a disclamer on their websites
"This is for DIY in-home use only and please contact me if you want to use this for commerical."
So from what some of you are saying is that... I can just go ahead and mass prodice their design if there is no patent?
From what I remember reading, copywright applies to works of art which also includes schematics, drawings, schematics and layouts... Once you make a schematic or any drawing it is automatically copywrited agains being copied... that being copied 1:1.
Now you would use a patent to describe a new design say "Making an enclosure using super special locking panels."
Correct me if I am wrong.
As you all may have noticed that DIY speaker designers put a disclamer on their websites
"This is for DIY in-home use only and please contact me if you want to use this for commerical."
So from what some of you are saying is that... I can just go ahead and mass prodice their design if there is no patent?
From what I remember reading, copywright applies to works of art which also includes schematics, drawings, schematics and layouts... Once you make a schematic or any drawing it is automatically copywrited agains being copied... that being copied 1:1.
Now you would use a patent to describe a new design say "Making an enclosure using super special locking panels."
Correct me if I am wrong.
Here is a good explanation.
Guitar Effects & Audio/Music Electronics
it's a bit tricky this lawer business lol
Guitar Effects & Audio/Music Electronics
it's a bit tricky this lawer business lol
In Europe copyright includes translations and modifications. Clearly with a translation none of the original text survives yet it is still covered by the original author's copyright, plus copyright for the translater too. Hence a hand-drawn copy of a circuit is still a copy and still potentially a copyright infringement.
There had to be a specific provision to allow reverse-engineering for the purpose of making ancillary items without the original copyright holder's permission because otherwise this would be unlawful. So in Europe if you buy something, take it apart, work out how it works, then start making clones you can be chased by lawyers. The item does not need patent protection for this to apply - patents can add an extra layer of protection.
In theory Trading Standards Officers will block all fake or cloned goods. In practice this only seems to happen for big designer labels.
There had to be a specific provision to allow reverse-engineering for the purpose of making ancillary items without the original copyright holder's permission because otherwise this would be unlawful. So in Europe if you buy something, take it apart, work out how it works, then start making clones you can be chased by lawyers. The item does not need patent protection for this to apply - patents can add an extra layer of protection.
In theory Trading Standards Officers will block all fake or cloned goods. In practice this only seems to happen for big designer labels.
Good points. Cost of production is a big consideration for big brand manufacturers (who depend on volume sales), so anything hidden or out of sight like a brace would have to be a known feature that those brands could use as a selling point to justify the added cost. That's not likely to happen, at least not in the short term, unless the feature was offered and became associated with some well known boutique brands. Then it might be possible to sell it as a feature.
If you post your ideas to the general public then they are in the public domain and anyone can use them.
Protecting ideas and designs in practice can be difficult. I spent years in an engineering company, as an engineer and lawyer, dealing with trying to limit other companies use of my own companies intellectual property and patented ideas.
If you are trying to make money from your ideas and designs the best way is to sell the completed speaker or amplifier that you have produced without giving away any details of the internal design.
If you do decide to patent then you will find it becomes more expensive the more countries you patent in and you will also find protecting the patent from others very expensive.
A secondry problem is trying to stop others from producing "similar" items.
Don
Protecting ideas and designs in practice can be difficult. I spent years in an engineering company, as an engineer and lawyer, dealing with trying to limit other companies use of my own companies intellectual property and patented ideas.
If you are trying to make money from your ideas and designs the best way is to sell the completed speaker or amplifier that you have produced without giving away any details of the internal design.
If you do decide to patent then you will find it becomes more expensive the more countries you patent in and you will also find protecting the patent from others very expensive.
A secondry problem is trying to stop others from producing "similar" items.
Don
I hesitate to correct a lawyer, but surely there is a distinction in law between publishing an idea and placing it in the public domain? Simple publication does not invalidate copyright, although in practice it might make enforcement more difficult. Copyright exists automatically, simply from the act of creating the work. Placing a design in the public domain is a deliberate act of giving away some/all IP rights to it (e.g. copyleft, open source licences).AMV8 said:
this looks like a good explanation of recent US changes: First-to-File Patent System Arrives March 16, 2013 | Publications | Resources | Porter Wright
and US only exemption for public disclosure:
DF56
You are not correcting anthing I said. All I said was "If you post your ideas to the general public then they are in the public domain and anyone can use them."
The point I tried to make in my e mail - maybe not well enough - is that if ideas are available to the public then someone will use them. If at that point you, as the " originator", believe the idea should not have used by someone else, then you as the "originator" can take action against them.
Taking out patents in more than one country is expensive and defending patents in more then one country, is even more expensive.
Some people believe that taking out a patent will stop others using the idea. My experience ( all business based ) is that taking out a patent does not stop others from using the idea, especially if it is a good idea. Taking out a patent also does not stop others from using similar ideas.
My experience is that the best plan is to keep the information confidential.
Don
You are not correcting anthing I said. All I said was "If you post your ideas to the general public then they are in the public domain and anyone can use them."
The point I tried to make in my e mail - maybe not well enough - is that if ideas are available to the public then someone will use them. If at that point you, as the " originator", believe the idea should not have used by someone else, then you as the "originator" can take action against them.
Taking out patents in more than one country is expensive and defending patents in more then one country, is even more expensive.
Some people believe that taking out a patent will stop others using the idea. My experience ( all business based ) is that taking out a patent does not stop others from using the idea, especially if it is a good idea. Taking out a patent also does not stop others from using similar ideas.
My experience is that the best plan is to keep the information confidential.
Don
"Design is free."
As an impostor industrial designer I eventually put most of my concepts up on DIYAudio to encourage a good thorough critique from our members, who really know and really matter, and always know much better than me. So post your idea! I doubt there's anything new under the sun in the field of cabinet bracing, so the gauntlet is down.
As an impostor industrial designer I eventually put most of my concepts up on DIYAudio to encourage a good thorough critique from our members, who really know and really matter, and always know much better than me. So post your idea! I doubt there's anything new under the sun in the field of cabinet bracing, so the gauntlet is down.
As I said earlier, I will construct a complete working model, and then I will post it. I've already constructed a partial brace and liked it. I think the complete brace may be more interesting.
Whether others will find it interesting enough to be worth trying is an open question, and I won't be overly disappointed if no one does. Nothing ventured nothing gained. Nevertheless, as I also said earlier, I admire the open, participatory nature of these kinds of forums where people share ideas simply for the love of what they do. This, for me, has the potential to be one of the more profound possibilities opened up by internet life, and I would like to encourage it. So I will post my idea, just be patient, for I'm in the middle of a bunch of hobby related projects right now and would like to at least get one or two of them completed first.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.