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Old 18th May 2013, 05:38 AM   #31
gootee is offline gootee  United States
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Some of the capacitor manufacturers have that kind of data on their websites. I forget which ones and lost a lot of links when one of my computers died. I remember that Cornell Dubilier has a Java applet for their electrolytics, which gives plots of C and ESR versus frequency and temperature, and also provides neat frequency and temperature dependent spice models that work for both time and frequency domain simulations. (I realize that's not exactly what you're asking for but wanted to mention it.) But I can't remember which manufacturers had comprehensive impedance data for the small types of caps. Kemet, maybe?
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Old 18th May 2013, 05:40 AM   #32
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I'm a big fan of Kemet's downloadable capacitor impedance plotting software (called Kemet Spice I think). A boon for designing with MLCCs.
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Old 18th May 2013, 10:16 AM   #33
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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the stuff from johansondielectrics is pretty good too
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Old 18th May 2013, 12:21 PM   #34
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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I will find a link to a long thread (very long) that covers in some detail bypass (or decoupling) capacitors. Where Gootee, goes into some depth on the maths etc involved. Me I'm a lazy PCB designer and lucky enough to have access to ALL Zukens PCB software tools so I use this:
http://www.algozen.com/DS_CADSTAR_LT...2011_10_05.pdf
I did have to spend a week in Germany learning to use the software, and discussing decoupling caps, planar capacitance and power delivery impendences a heavy going week, saved by nice German Beer and food
I am just doing a couple of urgent jobs so will be quiet rest of the day, but one of the first things we try to teach budding PCB designers, is:
PCB design is always a compromise, you have restrictions on layers, size, connector positions, technology (cost sometimes) and many other factors, so if you cant get the perfect textbook so9lution don't worry, their are many other options that will do the job. The skill comes in knowing which bits of circuit can be compromised and which cant. SMPS, clock circuitry etc you need to get near as perfect as possible, DDR memory interfaces must be perfect, but other digital that is lower speed, general IO etc you can relax the rules a bit. I don't mean you can cut corners, but do the best layout that the circumstances dictate.
One interesting thing we did learn on the PIA course was how ineffective decoupling caps are above 20MHz (it is the power plane and on chip capacitance that provide the first level of charge). You still need the decoupling and reservoir caps to control the overall power system impedance.
Some hi-tech boards are built with high planar capacitance which allows the removal of a lot of decouplers, this nest link illustrates better, and I'm going to work
Have fun
http://www.laocsmta.org/archive/Embe...esentation.pdf
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Old 18th May 2013, 06:05 PM   #35
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Hi All,

Thanks for suggesting & considering :-) I'll take a look at what you've written and then see where that leads ...

@marce: I can't change your but maybe some of these may help

Greetings from a now summerly Denmark - first day!!!

Jesper
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Old 18th May 2013, 07:46 PM   #36
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Hi all, apologies for going quiet on this thread, just when its getting interesting! Im away on a trip at the moment and away from my computer for at least the next 10 days. Im quite eager to get stuck into a design example when I get home. Thanks again all!
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Old 1st June 2013, 08:28 AM   #37
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Talking And we're back

Hi All, I'm back from a quick jaunt interstate, and keen as mustard to jump into this.

First a question - what will serve best as a learning example for everyone that's chipped in with interest so far? I'll put my most recent project up for dissection but I'm happy to defer to other interested parties should there be more learning potential in a different design.

And finally - how best to facilitate tweaking a layout? I use eagle, and I assume passing a gerber back and forth is the easiest way to exchange the layouts? Or is there a better way?
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Old 1st June 2013, 09:56 AM   #38
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Hi - & welcome back

I've actually been looking forward to this thread - and where it may go - in the time since the last posts. Hopefully without interfering with the OP's wishes I have a project suggestion that I reckon could be interesting to others as well as it combines many different frequency areas and domains:

- It is a pcb layout for the ESStech ES9102 ADC or for the TI PCM 4202 (or similar). It combines analog circuitry layout & digital circuitry layout (including clock placement considerations, digital data transmission), as well as possibly a venture into which components could be feasible to use in the various parts of the circuitry.

Quote:
And finally - how best to facilitate tweaking a layout? I use eagle, and I assume passing a gerber back and forth is the easiest way to exchange the layouts? Or is there a better way?
Eagle is fine with me - it is my impression that it is more or less the de facto standard with DIYs for PCB layouts ... ? I've heard, though, that KiCAD is also used where more board layers are desired as the freeware version of Eagle only allows for two layers.

- And then I have one more suggestion and that is that the first post in this thread is used some kind of "library" of what has been talked about in the various posts in the thread. That could be literature mentioned, links to other key threads, key component links, key posts in the thread, or ...? The idea is - in a short form - to make it accessible for others starting up with the thread to quickly find key information. Apart from maybe suggesting additions to this first post I do, however, realize that I will not be doing this work so entirely up to aspringv

Whatever becomes the object of a layout I'm genuinely interested

Greetings,

Jesper
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Last edited by gentlevoice; 1st June 2013 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 1st June 2013, 10:33 AM   #39
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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PDF of the layers is the best way then everyone can have view the data. I am just recovering from a holiday(!).
I have had a quick look at the schematic and will look in more detail later.
One thing I will state now, where possible I always advocate ground planes if costs etc permit, some audio experts here have argued long and hard with me over ground planes. At the bureau I work at, and places where I have worked in the past where I have done low level analogue and audio design (mainly professional) we have always used ground planes for the best signal integrity and robust design in the face of RF/EMC immunity.
Gentlevoice I plan to duplicate any design we do on Cadstar, it will be the best way of discussing points, and it will be interesting to see how different people approach component placement (the most important skill a PCB designer can develop) and routing.
As with PCB design especially there is always more than one way to lay out a board and it still work, until you get to DDR memory, gigabit Ethernet and SMPS's where the data and rules provided are thereto be followed, and it is stupid not to follow the data sheets.
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Old 1st June 2013, 10:41 AM   #40
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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One of the most critical aspects of ECAD and PCB design is the quality of your library parts information and footprints. The following document is an excellent starter for library information, and details a lot of information that is part of the IPC-7351 standard. (THe IPC is a source of lots of PCB related information and standards).
http://www.dnu.no/arkiv1/The%20CAD%2...e%20Future.pdf
http://pcdandf.com/cms/images/storie...02hausherr.pdf
The IPC-7351 footprint library is used globally now by most companies involved in electronic production and design, including most big firms you can think off.(I know for certain for a few cos I have done their libraries).

The attached document is MY generic manufacturing instructions for manufacturers, it is useful as it lists the relevant IPC spec for each process (solder resist, base laminate etc) so gives a basis for extra research if anyone is so inclined. Also it can be manipulated to form the basis for your own manufacturing documentation, just acknowledge the author (Marc England).
Another important aspect (and a bit boring) is issue control of your designs, even though its DIY and you may not do a lot of design work, using issue control and documenting the design history (at each issue step) will help build a knowledge base for your designs and avoid **** ups with data or using old design with say an incorrect footprint.
I'll shut up for a bit:
Attached Files
File Type: doc PCB manufacturing instructions.doc (84.5 KB, 118 views)
File Type: doc Issue Control of PCB Assembies.doc (34.5 KB, 76 views)

Last edited by marce; 1st June 2013 at 10:56 AM.
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