It was a terrific weekend - glad I made it there this time! Thanks to everyone who contributed in any way. There was more stuff available than I had time to properly listen to. What I learned, foremost, is that my ears aren't that educated. Listening to better gear than I have was an excellent opportunity to improve on that.
I thought all the subs were impressive considering the volume of the room. Liked the FLH the best, with the TH a close second. The two smaller boxes didn't do as well, but I didn't identify the issue as distortion the way some other people did.
Really liked Pierre's speakers - first time I've heard ribbons. Swapping amps on them was entertaining. The Ariels, RBRs, and Dave's black boxes were all great too. Seeing the measurement process and hearing people talk about it was valuable.
I would have liked to spend more time listening to the headphones and hp amps. Since they are small and easy to move I can hope they are back at the next meet... hint, hint.
The CDs I brought:
John Martyn - Solid Air (Saturday only, all others Sunday)
Amazon.com: Solid Air: John Martyn: Music
Julia Fordham - Porcelain
Amazon.com: Porcelain: Julia Fordham: Music
John Martyn - One World
Amazon.com: One World (Dlx): John Martyn: Music
Colin James - Bad Habits
http://www.amazon.com/Bad-Habits-Co...=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1296148445&sr=1-4
Al di Meola - The Grande Passion
Amazon.com: The Grande Passion: Al Di Meola World Sinfonia, Al Di Meola: Music
Thanks again to all who showed up.
bearberry
I thought all the subs were impressive considering the volume of the room. Liked the FLH the best, with the TH a close second. The two smaller boxes didn't do as well, but I didn't identify the issue as distortion the way some other people did.
Really liked Pierre's speakers - first time I've heard ribbons. Swapping amps on them was entertaining. The Ariels, RBRs, and Dave's black boxes were all great too. Seeing the measurement process and hearing people talk about it was valuable.
I would have liked to spend more time listening to the headphones and hp amps. Since they are small and easy to move I can hope they are back at the next meet... hint, hint.
The CDs I brought:
John Martyn - Solid Air (Saturday only, all others Sunday)
Amazon.com: Solid Air: John Martyn: Music
Julia Fordham - Porcelain
Amazon.com: Porcelain: Julia Fordham: Music
John Martyn - One World
Amazon.com: One World (Dlx): John Martyn: Music
Colin James - Bad Habits
http://www.amazon.com/Bad-Habits-Co...=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1296148445&sr=1-4
Al di Meola - The Grande Passion
Amazon.com: The Grande Passion: Al Di Meola World Sinfonia, Al Di Meola: Music
Thanks again to all who showed up.
bearberry
Hi John,
I've got good news! I just went through my transformer bin, and I think I have just what you're looking for:
ATC Frost 122.5 VCT @ 5.9A for 725VA
I've attached a picture for reference.
I've got a pair of them, and they're yours if you come and get them. Do you need one or both? Send me a PM and we can figure out the details.
Cheers,
Owen
I've got good news! I just went through my transformer bin, and I think I have just what you're looking for:
ATC Frost 122.5 VCT @ 5.9A for 725VA
I've attached a picture for reference.
I've got a pair of them, and they're yours if you come and get them. Do you need one or both? Send me a PM and we can figure out the details.
Cheers,
Owen
Attachments
Before getting to the comparison, I wanted to mention the “set-up” a little bit, because I’m not sure that some of those details have received as much coverage as they deserve. I have read enough to know that although subs might just look like big boxes, there are actually many ways to design a sub enclosure – you have to juggle your trade-offs, since you are balancing enclosure size, driver features/parameters, amplifier power requirements, etc. Given all these variables, comparing 4 different sub designs sounds like a recipe for one of those “apples-to-oranges” comparisons.
I was really looking forward to this comparison, however, because some clever DIY’ers tried to make this into an “apples-to-apples” comparison. I think that Mark did something remarkable i.e. he built 4 different designs using basically the same driver complement (2 x CSS SDX 7, I believe) – so no sub had a better driver than another sub. Then with Adam’s 12-channel amp & prep work, it was possible to easily switch between subs while playing at a consistent output level – so although these designs are not equally efficient, judging was not skewed by efficiency or amplifier sound qualities. I give credit to all those responsible, because I wouldn’t have expected to see these 4 different sub designs compared on such a level playing field. The space was a smallish community hall, but certainly bigger than the average listening room, and the subs were gathered in one corner location (reinforcement).
I made the following notes during the classical selection (organ; orchestra; Saint Saens?) that was played once through on each sub: The front-loaded horn (#1) definitely had the most rumble, and handled the bass the best. The tapped horn (#2) did not go as low or “rumbly” as the front-loaded horn; it seemed a bit boomy at first, but as the piece went on, it seemed to be fairly musical, and almost as deep as the front-loaded horn…so it was pretty good, but just not as good. The unhorn (#3) did surprisingly well for its size; it didn’t match the other two i.e. not the best. The front-driver, rear ported sub (#4) was not as good…it couldn’t play as well, and I thought it was “muddier”. (End of notes.) Having said that, it should be mentioned that the port on #4 may have been too close to the surface behind it, because after it was moved slightly forward during one of our two rounds of comparisons, it sounded better.
I was looking forward to 1 or 2 more rounds of comparisons, using other music, but unfortunately, that didn’t really pan out. I heard a bit of the CD I’d brought for the purpose of testing other bass-handling qualities – Thunder, by S.M.V. (track 2) – I think it was played on #1, but I didn’t make any notes. I would suggest that we really didn’t manage a proper critical comparison after the first round, so the second round sort of fizzled away. Overall, I think that the consensus (verified with my son & his teenaged ears) was that #1 and #2 impressed the most.
- Ron
I was really looking forward to this comparison, however, because some clever DIY’ers tried to make this into an “apples-to-apples” comparison. I think that Mark did something remarkable i.e. he built 4 different designs using basically the same driver complement (2 x CSS SDX 7, I believe) – so no sub had a better driver than another sub. Then with Adam’s 12-channel amp & prep work, it was possible to easily switch between subs while playing at a consistent output level – so although these designs are not equally efficient, judging was not skewed by efficiency or amplifier sound qualities. I give credit to all those responsible, because I wouldn’t have expected to see these 4 different sub designs compared on such a level playing field. The space was a smallish community hall, but certainly bigger than the average listening room, and the subs were gathered in one corner location (reinforcement).
I made the following notes during the classical selection (organ; orchestra; Saint Saens?) that was played once through on each sub: The front-loaded horn (#1) definitely had the most rumble, and handled the bass the best. The tapped horn (#2) did not go as low or “rumbly” as the front-loaded horn; it seemed a bit boomy at first, but as the piece went on, it seemed to be fairly musical, and almost as deep as the front-loaded horn…so it was pretty good, but just not as good. The unhorn (#3) did surprisingly well for its size; it didn’t match the other two i.e. not the best. The front-driver, rear ported sub (#4) was not as good…it couldn’t play as well, and I thought it was “muddier”. (End of notes.) Having said that, it should be mentioned that the port on #4 may have been too close to the surface behind it, because after it was moved slightly forward during one of our two rounds of comparisons, it sounded better.
I was looking forward to 1 or 2 more rounds of comparisons, using other music, but unfortunately, that didn’t really pan out. I heard a bit of the CD I’d brought for the purpose of testing other bass-handling qualities – Thunder, by S.M.V. (track 2) – I think it was played on #1, but I didn’t make any notes. I would suggest that we really didn’t manage a proper critical comparison after the first round, so the second round sort of fizzled away. Overall, I think that the consensus (verified with my son & his teenaged ears) was that #1 and #2 impressed the most.
- Ron
Hi folks, here are the promised loudspeaker measurements. Sorry it took so long to get these posted, I was traveling all week (its nice to be home!).
Marks "Anna" ported sub:
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Mark's "Horn" Sub Near Field
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Mark's "UnHorn" Sub Near Field:
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Mark's "Tapped Horn" Sub Near Field
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Estimate of Rick's Quatro Sub Near Field. Rick, I added the passive radiators to the driver assuming they were all ~ the same diameter.
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Adam's Line Source center channel (Adam, were these CSS EL70s?)
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Adam's EV driver (Adam, sorry, can't recall the part number on this)
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Pierre's PHL 1340 midrange-woofers and Aurum Cantus G2 ribbons in ported MTM tower configuration. Crossover design by André Perreault @ e-Speakers:
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Rick's RBR Recession Buster Reference (http://www.clearwaveloudspeaker.com/RBR/infoRBR.html)
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Owen's Ariel. Owen, sorry but the file was corrupted. The response looked very similar to this one, captured from Lynn Olson's web site, except I don't recall the tweeter level raising back up above 7 kHz:
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Dave's ScanUsher:
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Dayton ND-105-4 Frequency Response. For this one, I modeled the effect of the high tech vodka cabinet, so what's shown is "infinite baffle". John, it has a pretty big dip at 3 to 5 kHz. I see a number of designs where the crossover purposely puts this in, to make it more relaxed on music, but it would detract from voice intelligibility.
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
And finally, the Dayton ND105-4 #1 TS parameters:
0.134 "RMSE-free Ohms"
71.212 "Fs Hz"
3.951 "Re Ohms[dc]"
31.492 "Res Ohms"
4.748 "Qms "
0.596 "Qes "
0.529 "Qts "
0.488 "L1 mH"
0.535 "L2 mH"
1.489 "R2 Ohms"
0.127 "RMSE-load Ohms"
0.004 "Rub-index "
Be happy to send the raw measurement files to anyone (PM me here).
I'll be posting my loudspeaker design presentation in a few days (or using Mark's terminology, my "Un-Presentation"
)
Dave
Marks "Anna" ported sub:
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Mark's "Horn" Sub Near Field
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Mark's "UnHorn" Sub Near Field:
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Mark's "Tapped Horn" Sub Near Field
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Estimate of Rick's Quatro Sub Near Field. Rick, I added the passive radiators to the driver assuming they were all ~ the same diameter.
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Adam's Line Source center channel (Adam, were these CSS EL70s?)
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Adam's EV driver (Adam, sorry, can't recall the part number on this)
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Pierre's PHL 1340 midrange-woofers and Aurum Cantus G2 ribbons in ported MTM tower configuration. Crossover design by André Perreault @ e-Speakers:
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Rick's RBR Recession Buster Reference (http://www.clearwaveloudspeaker.com/RBR/infoRBR.html)
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Owen's Ariel. Owen, sorry but the file was corrupted. The response looked very similar to this one, captured from Lynn Olson's web site, except I don't recall the tweeter level raising back up above 7 kHz:
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Dave's ScanUsher:
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
Dayton ND-105-4 Frequency Response. For this one, I modeled the effect of the high tech vodka cabinet, so what's shown is "infinite baffle". John, it has a pretty big dip at 3 to 5 kHz. I see a number of designs where the crossover purposely puts this in, to make it more relaxed on music, but it would detract from voice intelligibility.
Picasa Web Albums - Dave - DIY Audio Ott...
And finally, the Dayton ND105-4 #1 TS parameters:
0.134 "RMSE-free Ohms"
71.212 "Fs Hz"
3.951 "Re Ohms[dc]"
31.492 "Res Ohms"
4.748 "Qms "
0.596 "Qes "
0.529 "Qts "
0.488 "L1 mH"
0.535 "L2 mH"
1.489 "R2 Ohms"
0.127 "RMSE-load Ohms"
0.004 "Rub-index "
Be happy to send the raw measurement files to anyone (PM me here).
I'll be posting my loudspeaker design presentation in a few days (or using Mark's terminology, my "Un-Presentation"
) Dave
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I was the last one with any energy left at the end of the day. It was always meant to be dual purpose, so look for it on the site with the tools, soon.
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Dave, thanks for the graphs. The CSS Quattro 15 does indeed have the same diameter passives as the main driver. If you were to put the graphs for the Quattro and the RBR into words to "sell" them, what would you say about them. I'd like to post the info in my build threads but don't want to miss- interpret the results, or take them out of context.
Hi Rick,
I think the graphs show that the sub has really solid usable output to 20 Hz, and the RBR is very flat in response.
Looking at the Quattro, you might want to try less weight on the PR, it might give you a bit more output from 25 to 30Hz but at the expense of a slightly higher roll off.
Hi guys,
I've posted the presentation I pulled together for the Ottawa DIY meeting this January. You can find further information at:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...hout-performing-measurements.html#post2461745
Even if you don't want to design your own, but want to know how different design choices (box size, type, baffle shape, crossover types and roll off rates) affect the sound of loudspeakers, this is work a look.
Dave
I've posted the presentation I pulled together for the Ottawa DIY meeting this January. You can find further information at:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...hout-performing-measurements.html#post2461745
Even if you don't want to design your own, but want to know how different design choices (box size, type, baffle shape, crossover types and roll off rates) affect the sound of loudspeakers, this is work a look.
Dave
Welcome to the group Kevin. Judging how the previous two events have gone, I believe the incentive will be high to have another. May not be until summer, but don't be afraid to post up what you're working on or interested in.
If we can keep people "talking" we can probably keep interest high in another meet. (sooner rather than later)
If we can keep people "talking" we can probably keep interest high in another meet. (sooner rather than later
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