No better words have been said.
toobhed said:
Amen, Brother!
ra7 said:
Yes. That's why I go.
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Folks:
What a disappointment! I've made it to two BAFs so far and was really looking forward to attending again this year. While I can certainly sympathize with the complaints of those of you who had to tote gear up the stairs (I really can't get worked up over having to wait for a slow freight elevator) and agree that the acoustics at Fort Mason are far from ideal, I question how most hotel venues would stack up in comparison.
In my limited experience at 3 or 4 hotel-based audio events, the rooms were uniformly awful. In each case, music from adjoining rooms was clearly audible, the rooms themselves were small (hotel bedrooms are certainly smaller than the rooms available at Fort Mason), the acoustics stink and fighting to get a seat in a "sweet spot" was an aggravation that seriously detracted from the joy of the event. The listening rooms were also noisy with people milling around the open doors and noise percolating in from the hallways.
For me, BAF's biggest attraction is that it's hosted and attended by DIYers with limited distractions from commercial sponsors (no insult intended to Messrs Pass or Linkwitz or the very kind people from LS). I don't want to be besieged by brochures or see glitzy displays from manfacturers hawking commercial products in rooms near DIY projects, and at the risk of being labeled a snob (though it may be true), I don't want to rub elbows with folks who want to attend a CES-like event. While that may not be anyone's intent, the risk of losing the DIY essence of BAF as increasing numbers of commercial sponsors are added shouldn't be minimized.
I'm not a local. I live on the East Coast, and attending BAF is both an audio pilgrimage and a mini-vacation; this past October, I attended the Hardly Strictly Bluegrass Festival the day before BAF 2013 and was entranced by fantastic live performances by noted musicians in a free, joyous public venue. It was a magical, musical weekend and I pray that both events take place the same weekend in the future. I travel extensively for my job and spend too much time in isolated hotels; the idea of attending an event in a humdrum hotel that is tantalizingly close to but not conveniently in a playground like San Francisco would make BAF frustrating for me. So move BAF from Fort Mason if you can find a better location, but please limit your search to the city or someplace accessible from SF by rapid transit.
Most of all, thanks to everyone who has contributed so much to making BAF the event it is (Variac!). For all my whining, I'm very grateful for all of your efforts and promise to attend BAF 2015, wherever it may end up.
Regards,
Scott
What a disappointment! I've made it to two BAFs so far and was really looking forward to attending again this year. While I can certainly sympathize with the complaints of those of you who had to tote gear up the stairs (I really can't get worked up over having to wait for a slow freight elevator) and agree that the acoustics at Fort Mason are far from ideal, I question how most hotel venues would stack up in comparison.
In my limited experience at 3 or 4 hotel-based audio events, the rooms were uniformly awful. In each case, music from adjoining rooms was clearly audible, the rooms themselves were small (hotel bedrooms are certainly smaller than the rooms available at Fort Mason), the acoustics stink and fighting to get a seat in a "sweet spot" was an aggravation that seriously detracted from the joy of the event. The listening rooms were also noisy with people milling around the open doors and noise percolating in from the hallways.
For me, BAF's biggest attraction is that it's hosted and attended by DIYers with limited distractions from commercial sponsors (no insult intended to Messrs Pass or Linkwitz or the very kind people from LS). I don't want to be besieged by brochures or see glitzy displays from manfacturers hawking commercial products in rooms near DIY projects, and at the risk of being labeled a snob (though it may be true), I don't want to rub elbows with folks who want to attend a CES-like event. While that may not be anyone's intent, the risk of losing the DIY essence of BAF as increasing numbers of commercial sponsors are added shouldn't be minimized.
I'm not a local. I live on the East Coast, and attending BAF is both an audio pilgrimage and a mini-vacation; this past October, I attended the Hardly Strictly Bluegrass Festival the day before BAF 2013 and was entranced by fantastic live performances by noted musicians in a free, joyous public venue. It was a magical, musical weekend and I pray that both events take place the same weekend in the future. I travel extensively for my job and spend too much time in isolated hotels; the idea of attending an event in a humdrum hotel that is tantalizingly close to but not conveniently in a playground like San Francisco would make BAF frustrating for me. So move BAF from Fort Mason if you can find a better location, but please limit your search to the city or someplace accessible from SF by rapid transit.
Most of all, thanks to everyone who has contributed so much to making BAF the event it is (Variac!). For all my whining, I'm very grateful for all of your efforts and promise to attend BAF 2015, wherever it may end up.
Regards,
Scott
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Well I feel that we need breathing room to plan. My personal life is quite complicated ATM also, Nothing that won't be all resolved within 6 months, but I need to focus on that for now. Possibly I'll be retiring from architecture, which would give me more time for planning stuff like BAF in the future.
And now is the time for suggestions, please keep 'em coming..
Here's what has stuck for me:
-2 days would be great. I have to agree that otherwise setup is frantic, and with the talks, there really needs to be more time. Possibly one day would have seminars, the next the presentations, with audition rooms both days. Seminars such as in-depth presentation of software, Amp Camp (build a Pass amp in an afternoon! ), a "test your amp" station, a real Swap Meet where people trade and sell stuff that is too valuable to just give away.
-To do all this we need some more sponsors. Most real audio shows charge 2-4 thousand dollars a room for 3 days, so the $25 you pay to enter those shows is only part of the income. I think that we can't charge more than $30 for the entry fee, and the sponsors are a very specific group- Maybe they can all have booths like Linear Systems usually has. (Thanks Linear!) The sponsors we would attract is the question. Maybe people like Parts Express would like to have a table to demo stuff. Audio Xpress/Elektor throw a couple hundred our way too. I don't mind more sponsors with more booths and a few banners around... If they want a whole room for their stuff, it doesn't help as much , but I suppose there could be some profit in that to subsidize other rooms
-Some people think a regular type audio show at a hotel is fine, at least an equal number appreciate being in S.F. and being by the water. On The Bay is a bit of a common thread- remember how we used the Presidio Yacht club some years , which was right near the bridge and also right on the water.
-Sound quality sure could be better! Would be nice to have much better sound, although, it IS true that this is more of a social event and that's OK, but just would be better if the environment were better. Of course hotel rooms often sound pretty bad too..
And now is the time for suggestions, please keep 'em coming..
Here's what has stuck for me:
-2 days would be great. I have to agree that otherwise setup is frantic, and with the talks, there really needs to be more time. Possibly one day would have seminars, the next the presentations, with audition rooms both days. Seminars such as in-depth presentation of software, Amp Camp (build a Pass amp in an afternoon! ), a "test your amp" station, a real Swap Meet where people trade and sell stuff that is too valuable to just give away.
-To do all this we need some more sponsors. Most real audio shows charge 2-4 thousand dollars a room for 3 days, so the $25 you pay to enter those shows is only part of the income. I think that we can't charge more than $30 for the entry fee, and the sponsors are a very specific group- Maybe they can all have booths like Linear Systems usually has. (Thanks Linear!) The sponsors we would attract is the question. Maybe people like Parts Express would like to have a table to demo stuff. Audio Xpress/Elektor throw a couple hundred our way too. I don't mind more sponsors with more booths and a few banners around... If they want a whole room for their stuff, it doesn't help as much , but I suppose there could be some profit in that to subsidize other rooms
-Some people think a regular type audio show at a hotel is fine, at least an equal number appreciate being in S.F. and being by the water. On The Bay is a bit of a common thread- remember how we used the Presidio Yacht club some years , which was right near the bridge and also right on the water.
-Sound quality sure could be better! Would be nice to have much better sound, although, it IS true that this is more of a social event and that's OK, but just would be better if the environment were better. Of course hotel rooms often sound pretty bad too..
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a swap meet would be welcome. I don't want any part of selling on ebay; and craigslist is a hassle. it might be nice if people can post (somewhere) what they have for sale or trade and if there is a 'taker' lined up, that seller knows its at least worth the effort to bring said gear with him. I have a bunch of stuff I no longer want and would love to trade or sell. if it can happen at BA, great!
I went for the talks and to meet people. It's a really fun event and two days would be great. More presentations would be great too. I'm sorry to hear there won't be one in 2014, but that gives me plenty of time to prepare for 2015. Many, many thanks to the guys who put this on and good luck with your new direction.
Thanks for your thanks Michael, and my family members and friends who I force to help out, and of course our volunteers thank you too.
I'm pleased with the decision to wait a year. I'm getting a lot of good feedback. Although some ideas seem to conflict, they mostly don't- people have different needs and maybe we can have different areas and events at different times to accommodate everyone..
Please keep the ideas and comments coming.
Mark
I'm pleased with the decision to wait a year. I'm getting a lot of good feedback. Although some ideas seem to conflict, they mostly don't- people have different needs and maybe we can have different areas and events at different times to accommodate everyone..
Please keep the ideas and comments coming.
Mark
I love the BAF because it brings together a group of extreme and totally dedicated people who are more interested in passing on ideas and learning than selling or buying stuff. I love the slightly chaotic arrangements and the cooperation it requires from people and which is freely given. Fort Mason is a great location, but the acoustics are reverberant to the extreme. That has two problems: a very high ambient noise level from people talking and secondly the majority of loudspeakers are not designed to work optimally in even modestly reverberant spaces. So forget about critical listening. I thought the BAF was about amplifiers. Maybe speakers should only be played to demo electronic gear. It would then be up to the gear designer to arrange for speakers to demo his/her stuff. Basically loudspeakers are only used when needed and not demo'ed for their own sake. I have observed when demoing speakers at Fort Mason that just opening the door to the hallway introduces way too much noise and that people in the room have to be really quiet to hear a semblance of what the speakers are capable off. Let's forget about loudspeakers and keep talking about electronics and, yes, also about loudspeakers. BAF should not become one of the many hotel room based audio shows. It would be a real loss.
SL
SL
Despite the name, BAF is every bit a speaker builder's event as it is an amp builder's. Or for that matter, DAC builder, electronic crossover builder, turntable builder, etc.
People bring in speakers of all sorts -- line arrays, horns, dipoles, monitors, single-driver, multi-way, you name it. They are projects of their own merit, not simply as a way to demo electronics.
As for the general disdain of hotels, not all of them are alike. Some have conference rooms with much better acoustics than Fort Mason. I don't know what it costs for a day at Fort Mason, but a hotel is not necessarily more expensive. I know that a couple of years ago, the cost of a head-fi meet at the DoubleTree San Francisco Airport was $1150 for a large space split into 3 rooms, plus the hallway for people to hang out in. Even if we double that cost, and assuming we get at least 100 attendees, the $30 per-head charge should cover it all with cash to spare, and that's not counting any donations or sponsorship.
Personally, I'm not too worried about whether the Golden Gate Bridge is or isn't right outside. It sure is nice, but as an audio event, Fort Mason leaves a lot to be desired. Visitors from afar will find their way to San Francisco and other local attractions, before or after BAF, as I'm sure they did in the past anyway. I believe that as long as the likes of Nelson Pass, Siegfried Linkwitz, etc., continue to grace us with their presence, people will come.
People bring in speakers of all sorts -- line arrays, horns, dipoles, monitors, single-driver, multi-way, you name it. They are projects of their own merit, not simply as a way to demo electronics.
As for the general disdain of hotels, not all of them are alike. Some have conference rooms with much better acoustics than Fort Mason. I don't know what it costs for a day at Fort Mason, but a hotel is not necessarily more expensive. I know that a couple of years ago, the cost of a head-fi meet at the DoubleTree San Francisco Airport was $1150 for a large space split into 3 rooms, plus the hallway for people to hang out in. Even if we double that cost, and assuming we get at least 100 attendees, the $30 per-head charge should cover it all with cash to spare, and that's not counting any donations or sponsorship.
Personally, I'm not too worried about whether the Golden Gate Bridge is or isn't right outside. It sure is nice, but as an audio event, Fort Mason leaves a lot to be desired. Visitors from afar will find their way to San Francisco and other local attractions, before or after BAF, as I'm sure they did in the past anyway. I believe that as long as the likes of Nelson Pass, Siegfried Linkwitz, etc., continue to grace us with their presence, people will come.
For those who are interested in DIY loudspeakers, I encourage you to attend the meetings of the NorCal DIY Audio group. We try to meet up about once per year when Burning Amp is not taking place. This is usually in May, but this year we will be meeting in October as well, date TBD. The group meets in a venue in Davis, CA and this is about 1-1.5hrs drive from the Bay Area. Any interested person from the Bay Area can easily make a day out of it. You can even take BART/Amtrak-Capitol-Corridor to the Davis station if you want to avoid driving altogether.
If you want to get occasional updates about meetings from the group's EMail list, please sign up here:
NorCal DIY Audio group EMail list sign-up page
You can opt out of the EMails at any time. Otherwise just look for posts about the group's next meeting in this forum.
We would always love to have more people bring their DIY electronics projects!
.
If you want to get occasional updates about meetings from the group's EMail list, please sign up here:
NorCal DIY Audio group EMail list sign-up page
You can opt out of the EMails at any time. Otherwise just look for posts about the group's next meeting in this forum.
We would always love to have more people bring their DIY electronics projects!
.
Hello Everyone,
Yes I was a bit burnt out, but it was more to do with work and family dramas adding so much extra time that I couldn't go looking for another space when Ft Mason told me I couldn't get our same old place. Funny how the place was polarizing - People either loved or hated it. Well now everyone seems to love it now that there's no other option! To be fair, no one could claim that the acoustics were very good!
I have pretty much done all the work organizing the show for most years, aided by my friends and family pitching in the day of the event. And of course we always have the volunteers too.. Thanks to you all. It would have been a better event if I had time to get a core group together and to delegate- then the format would have evolved more. My schedule just never seemed to allow for that.
So back to Ft Mason. They are in the midst of a site wide remodel to make the place more upscale. Not too sure that's a good thing. Funky, low budget events like ours will get squeezed out of SF. so they won't commit to renting us the space until August sometime.
So, if they give the go-ahead then, we can easily get the thing together by October.
Certainly getting more people involved would help a lot. Let's try to do that now.
Please don't suggest alternate venues or general locations without checking them out first. Call, then visit it in person. We need various mediums sized rooms. Most venues have large rooms. Also think of other people. Perhaps you don't like driving to an event or traffic, but other people might find that place charming or worth driving to. Your place may be inconvenient for them. Instead, help out some- call the place then visit it and see what the can offer. Take some photos. Then post here and I can take a look.
Mark Cronander
Yes I was a bit burnt out, but it was more to do with work and family dramas adding so much extra time that I couldn't go looking for another space when Ft Mason told me I couldn't get our same old place. Funny how the place was polarizing - People either loved or hated it. Well now everyone seems to love it now that there's no other option! To be fair, no one could claim that the acoustics were very good!
I have pretty much done all the work organizing the show for most years, aided by my friends and family pitching in the day of the event. And of course we always have the volunteers too.. Thanks to you all. It would have been a better event if I had time to get a core group together and to delegate- then the format would have evolved more. My schedule just never seemed to allow for that.
So back to Ft Mason. They are in the midst of a site wide remodel to make the place more upscale. Not too sure that's a good thing. Funky, low budget events like ours will get squeezed out of SF. so they won't commit to renting us the space until August sometime.
So, if they give the go-ahead then, we can easily get the thing together by October.
Certainly getting more people involved would help a lot. Let's try to do that now.
Please don't suggest alternate venues or general locations without checking them out first. Call, then visit it in person. We need various mediums sized rooms. Most venues have large rooms. Also think of other people. Perhaps you don't like driving to an event or traffic, but other people might find that place charming or worth driving to. Your place may be inconvenient for them. Instead, help out some- call the place then visit it and see what the can offer. Take some photos. Then post here and I can take a look.
Mark Cronander
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Mark, thanks for your post about the possibility of holding BA at Fort Mason in the future. I just wanted to add that if anyone is checking out alternative venues please keep in mind cost and accessibility. There ARE venues around the Bay Area that might work but many are quite expensive to rent on a weekend and/or may not have the parking that allows hundreds of (largely) amateurs to roll up in their vehicles and unload their gear. Cost and accessibility are just as easily applicable to a hotel or conference center. Since loudspeakers have been more prevalent in recent years at BA, its a bonus if the acoustics of the space are suitable for listening - several medium sized rooms are certainly better for that purpose.
Personally I would really like to see BA continue on in some form or another. The venue for the DIY loudspeaker group out here (near Sacramento) is no longer available to me so that group's meetings are likely ending.
Personally I would really like to see BA continue on in some form or another. The venue for the DIY loudspeaker group out here (near Sacramento) is no longer available to me so that group's meetings are likely ending.
Burning Amp
I was at only the 2013 event, but had a great time. As a BA resident, I can do some scouting. One thing that would be helpful is general specs for the past events.... how many rooms, types, and number of people that have attended. I rough budget from past events perhaps. That info may have been posted, so a link would help me.
I was at only the 2013 event, but had a great time. As a BA resident, I can do some scouting. One thing that would be helpful is general specs for the past events.... how many rooms, types, and number of people that have attended. I rough budget from past events perhaps. That info may have been posted, so a link would help me.
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