What difference does solder type have? (41Hz Amp4)

Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.
Hey all,

I’ve been making adjustments to the 41hz Amp4 kit for some time now, so am now down to the much finer (and perhaps trivial) parts of the kit.

In this thread, I’d like to ask about what difference what solder you use to assemble the kit has on the sonic results.

Now some people, have said that using different solder has only physical effects, ie. affects only how you solder it (temps ect), and how strong the resulting hold is. However, others have said it makes a ‘huge’ difference, and have recommended silver-containing solder, specifically WBT or Audionote UK.

I’d be very interested in knowing your opinions on this! :D

Thanks,
Peter
 
Ex-Moderator R.I.P.
Joined 2005
In this amp you have smd IC, so I would use nothing but solder with silver, and use a fine tip for small parts and a bigger tip for the rest
Actually you should use a solder with smaller dimension for smd IC

The way you solder will have influence on sound, nothing else

Always use as little solder as possible - it should smooth and shiny
 
I just have one word for all this hocus pocus - "hogwash" !

Your standard 63/37 or 60/40 with rosin flux is good enough for anything. Try to avoid water soluble fluxes which are very caustic and have to be washed in less than 30 minutes. Lead-free (RoHS) solder which is becoming the norm now in Europe contains 3% silver tends to require hotter soldering irons and less wetting characteristics make a solder joint look whitish and unshiny. Hotter temperatures and longer work time can lead to component damages if not careful, so in essence lead free solder has less tolerance when you are working with components with lead based specifications. Average working time before a component is damaged is usually 3-5 seconds, if the solder does not melt and wet properly in this time frame, then your tip is not big enough for the job.

People tend to think if they spend more for silver solder, it will sound better, but the truth is it all about how you solder with proper size tips, wetting and soldering skills.

It seems from watching and looking, the audio world has alot to learn about electronic workmanship and acceptability, it simply is not on par with other technology based industries at the moment. I have have built, supervised and consulted for mission critical assemblies and components for DOD, DND, NASA and the wiring and harnesses for the International Space station and I can tell you they all use only 60/40 with RMA flux. The only aerospace company using lead-free solder now is Airbus, so now I don't trust their reliability, their planes will start falling out of the sky in about 15-20 years for the sake of environmental friendliness.
 
Administrator
Joined 2004
Paid Member
EdT said:
I just have one word for all this hocus pocus - "hogwash" !

My question would be - "How can you know?"

How can you really tell if the solder has a sound? You'd have to build two or more identical amps using different solders throughout the circuit to know. Wouldn't you?

While some manufacturers may be able to do this, for example go to a new solder in the middle of a production run, most of us can't/won't.

I can tell you that in my business, fine art printing, everything makes a difference. A shift in the ink formula, the printing substrate, the coatings, the humidity, etc. All of that changes the way things look. Sometimes drastically, sometimes subtly. But because we have a reference print on file, it's easy to compare. Sometimes there is no need to compare; we just see it right off. It's a constant hassle.

So I can believe that the solder "could" make a difference to the sound. I just don't know it "does."
 
EdT said:

The only aerospace company using lead-free solder now is Airbus, so now I don't trust their reliability, their planes will start falling out of the sky in about 15-20 years for the sake of environmental friendliness.

Do you honestly think you have more insight than all the people working at Airbus? Then you must think very highly of yourself. Do you make people around you address you "supreme being?"
 
phn said:


Do you honestly think you have more insight than all the people working at Airbus? Then you must think very highly of yourself. Do you make people around you address you "supreme being?"
[/QUOTE

Actually, I worked on the modules that were for Airbus, their people were always visiting from France and we had some difficulties in getting good solder joints after reflow. It has been less than a year since the switch over to RoHS due the EC regulations. All US aerospace manufacturers have been exempted from this ban, because no one in the right mind would just switch over from something that has been proven for over 40 years to some thing that was not even available less than 5 years ago, there is no data to support reliability, only accelerated aging tests. We are talking about people' lives here, not just some electronic appliance that has no consequences when it fails.

I guess its all the misinformation that makes the high end audio sector a snake oil type of business, I guess its because these are the people who have the money to burn without anything to support the facts ! All these audio gear manufacturers come up their little niche slogans or so called technology, all I can say is that anyone with a technical background will know if it is BS without a wink, the only people they will catch and fall for prey is the uninitiated !
 
Yes, solder has a sound

My friend, it is not a good idea to ask about things like the sound of solder or damping heatsinks or the sound of resistors or other things that tweaky or even tweakier.on this forum....most here do not believe in these things....so, mostly you will get the "that's voodoo ********" kind of answer.....the truth is otherwise.

All brands of solder have a sound...including those that are made using the same proportion of materials....some silver solders sound bright.....I have one here (Acer Racing Solder) that is something like 6 percent silver and has no highs....sounds real dull. Solder, like many things can be straight wire bypassed to assertain its sonic signature.....simply use a piece of wire say 4 inches long as the reference and then add four solder joints in the middle and A/B the two pieces of wire (naturally, do this in stereo..one wire for each channel)....you will clearly hear that the nonsoldered piece will always sound better.....of course, now we will hear from those that want blind tests and all that....oh well....I personally think the goal of audio is to make something sound better.....what could be a better tool than our ears? for that task?....Do you think that you could measure any difference with different brands of solder....not likely....but you can sure hear the difference. Those that want to know will find out. Those that just want to be right will naturally just be right....he he....even if they are wroing...he he.

Some good sounding solders are: Wonder, WBT and Cardas....others like Siltech (too bright for me), Marigo and Johnson. The newly introduced lead free versions sound slightly different (according to their manufacturers)....I have some here but I have yet to listen.

I can hear the change in sound simply by redoing one solder connection (per channel) anywhere in my chain.

I just can't wait to hear the normal "that's voodoo" replies to my post. Well, maybe I can wait....he he. Listening is an art. It leads to wisdom. Spouting supposed knowledge based on non-experiential data (not tested with your senses...your ears...ie, not exeprienced...simply a thought) is simply righteousness.

End of religious rant on the sonic differences of solder....Hail solder fumes...the all mighty one has smoken....I mean spoken...he he...............sure is fun posting here!
 
Well, here we go.
It seems pretty apparent that the quality of an electrical connection can be characterized by physical measurements of electrical qualities- resistance, capacitance and inductance. How the effects of solder on a particular connection can significantly alter those electrical characteristics is pretty non-intuitive. I know that a lot of people have convinced themselves, without the benefit of measurements, that things like solder make a difference. This is an rejection of the principals of science and engineering. But it's your money. I suggest you take a BLIND Pepsi challenge. Then ask your audiophile friends to take the same. Good Luck
 
When you think of it, it's more likely that there is a difference than that there isn't. Afterall, one solder joint makes for two material transitions (far more on multi-strand wire), so different solders will not only have different conductive properties through the solder itself, but more importantly, they differ in how well they connect to the components you solder.

But like others have stated here, expensive solder isn't going to do you much good if your soldering sucks. And no matter what, I think we can all agree that what kind of solder you choose isn't going to make the most significant difference on sound.
 
Administrator
Joined 2004
Paid Member
Well, I doubt that I could hear the difference in ONE solder joint, but a whole amp full of them, maybe. ;)

FWIW, I use and like Wonder Solder, it's easy to work with and not too expensive.
WBT is a nice working solder, too. The quality of the solder joint these give me may be more important than what the solder is made of.

...we had some difficulties in getting good solder joints after reflow.

And so solder makes no difference? If you dislike the new RoHS solders so much, don't you think that other solders could be better or worse than others?
Or is it a case of "this type of solder is good enough, it doesn't get better."

It seems to break down into the Romantic and Pragmatic schools of audio practice.

The Romantics think everything in the audio chain makes a difference.
The Pragmatics think anything "electrically equivalent" sounds the same.

Old argument, there is no end in sight. :rolleyes:
 
I shouldn't have time to get into this but ... to those who don't think blind testing is worth doing ("I know what I hear") it should be remembered that in subjective testing the largest variable is between the ears. Psychologists have been demonstrating this since the 1890s so it's time the audio world caught up.

Where I agree about printing (I publish postcards and maps which are always proofed on press), at least there we know why the differences come about, the material science is established. I get uneasy when we go against known engineering practice without being able to offer a serious suggestion as to why it makes a difference.
 
I dunno about solder specifically, but I saw this quote:

"I know that a lot of people have convinced themselves, without the benefit of measurements, that things like solder make a difference. This is an rejection of the principals of science and engineering."

I would like to say that the suggestions that solder may make a difference isn't necessarily a rejection of the principals of science and engineering. Rather, I would suggest that one may judge a phenomenon as incompletely described by current science and technology. There are many things that fall into this catagory.
 
EdT said:

Actually, I worked on the modules that were for Airbus, their people were always visiting from France and we had some difficulties in getting good solder joints after reflow. It has been less than a year since the switch over to RoHS due the EC regulations. All US aerospace manufacturers have been exempted from this ban, because no one in the right mind would just switch over from something that has been proven for over 40 years to some thing that was not even available less than 5 years ago, there is no data to support reliability, only accelerated aging tests. We are talking about people' lives here, not just some electronic appliance that has no consequences when it fails.

1. Get your facts straight. There's no RoHS regulation that says you have to build unsafe planes.

2. You think anyone would let you fly unsafe planes?
 
panomaniac said:
And so solder makes no difference? If you dislike the new RoHS solders so much, don't you think that other solders could be better or worse than others?
Or is it a case of "this type of solder is good enough, it doesn't get better."

I am referring to the wetting and mechanical properties of the solder, RoHS or lead free solder is mainly a tin based solder 96%, 3% silver and 0.5% copper known to the industry as SAC305, developed due to the ban on solder with lead from the EC on 1 Jan. 2006. It requires a higher melting temperature 218C compared to conventional 60/40 or 63/37 at 183C. The main problem with a lead free solder is with the absence of lead the melting temperature is higher and the solder becomes more brittle. The wetting is another problem as the flux had to be reformulated for the higher temperatures and it is a trade secret for most solder manufacturers as they struggle to get it right. Lead also provides ductility and flow characteristics to the solder joint that is missing from SAC305 which is brittle and this is where we have concerns in mission critical applications such as the aerospace contracts. We don't know how SAC305 will react in 20 years with all the vibrations that it experience aboard an aircraft.

Like I said before, I don't think alot of these rebranded solder like Wonder, WBT, Cardas, Siltech and others is even their own make, they simply relabelled it from large solder manufactuers such as Loctite, Kester, AIM, Alpha or Idium. All this reminds me of the motor oil debate analogy of who makes the best oil, just because Castrol has cool slick TV commercials, people think they are good, where in fact Castrol - First Brands is actually a very good marketing and packaging company with no refineries. So who makes their oil ? there are only 3-4 major player in the world such as Exxon, Shell, BP, and Mobil.
 
EdT said:
The main problem with a lead free solder is with the absence of lead the melting temperature is higher and the solder becomes more brittle.

It becomes stronger.

EdT said:
Lead also provide ductility and flow to the solder joint that is missing from SAC305 which is brittle and this is where we have concerns in mission critical applications such as the aerospace contracts.
Why do you believe ductility is a good thing?

If you need ductility, then you are working the metal far too much. Look up low cycle fatigue..the telephone company had problems with that half a century ago.

Many of the semiconductors you rely on in aerospace applications use gold-germanium eutectic die attach, and many use gold-tin. Gold tin is brittle as all getout, but provides amazing die shear strength and temp cycle fatigue/power cycle fatigue resistance. There are limits to the die size that can be attached this way to copper, but the guys who do it for a living will know that already.

EdT said:
We don't know how SAC305 will react in 20 years with all the vibrations that it experience aboard an aircraft.

The biggest hindrance to the use of tin/silver eutectic solders in the US military is the concern over whiskers and pest. The rel guys were all over me when this issue first rose, as I have a tad bit of experience in this area.

Cheers, John
 
diyAudio Editor
Joined 2001
Paid Member
Just because solder or oil is made by one of the major companies doesn't mean that it it is the same as what they make for themselves. They can certainly produce special batches to spec. Obvious, because they make various spec for themselves even!

Of course it COULD be the same, it just isn't logical to assume its the same.
 
more on solder

Any one of you could hear the difference on my stereo with one solder joint changed....yup...that easy to hear on a very tweaky system.

Most all the audiophile solders are made to order. I know of at least 8 different versions of Wonder solder that have been made through the years. Peter is always testing and trying different formulas....even his wonder wire has gone through several incarnations. These are not regular solders rebadged. Like I said, we tried several different brands of solder that all used the same combo of basic materials and they all sounded different, some dramatically different.

I believe in engineering....it gets you started. Then its time to listen....here is where the magic happens. We cannot measure (at present) the difference between solders, resistors, etc....but we can hear the difference. A caddock resistor sounds noticeably different from a Vishay....yet both are non inductive designs the same size.....a nude vishay sounds different (better) again....just removing some of the stuff on the outside. I use speaker wires that have been stripped of the outer two layers of insulation....so just one thin foam polyethylene layer on each strand....way better sound than all that thick insulation on the wire....I won't name the brand of wire I modified, but it is expensive.....sounded better stripped down....usually, less is more.

What is hocus pocus to some is magic to others. My interest in audio is to have musicians in the room and feeling the emotion and aliveness great music can bring. So, whatever it takes to get there is what is important. What is important to you? Is it great sound or doing things "by the book"? And whose book? The scientists? The measurers? Are they your Gods? I trust no one. I listen for myself and decide what makes a difference and what does not and whether that difference is worth something to me. Become your own God.....be-live in what you experience. Trust yourself....trust your ears....they are given to you by spirit.....they are the best test instrument ever (for audio, yes). End of sermon. Last one in this thread.
 
See comments about blind testing above. It's the bit between the ears that matters in subjective testing and it is not safe to trust it without some outside measure of how it is doing.

If you 'know' a product has been assembled with the utmost care using specially concocted ingredients aren't you going to find it very difficult to regard it as the same as a similar product you've been told was manufactured in a factory using conventional components?

Hi-Fi News, around 1990, reported on a preamp specially made with one channel constructed using audiophile components and the other with standard, well-specified components. You can guess the difference the reviewer heard.
 
Lets just say there is a greater percentage that is subjective and unfounded with the audio industry then anywhere else, but hey whose to says that is wrong unless if people are going to get hurt or killed in the process, different strokes for different folks. I can tell you if I smoke a cigar I can tell you if it is a Cuban with a second puff and I can assure you that is not subjective ..LoL !
 
Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.