DIY class D or vintage? - bit confused

[erozsolt]

I've just read and read all that story that started with the little T-Amp, the followers, 41hz, AudioDigit, Charlize, super t-amp, and now that Philips UcD stuff, and I am just totally confused now.

All I want is music, something warm, something enjoyable. From my spare money, say, I can spend $300 for a nice amp. I don't have serious soldering experience, I would never want to solder smds or like, I would be happy to put an assembled board to self-made box, I can even solder some inputs-outputs but no chips or very small parts.

My biggest confusion is about how does all that new stuff compares to vintage or lightly used HiFi stuff - nobody talks about that. For example I can buy a used Pioneer A400 or even a slightly used NAD C320BEE in the UK for that money, which is well known for it's good sound. Nothing high-end, but good sound for it's money. I don't have speakers yet, so I can choose the ones matching for the amp (I can even choose to make ones, but I beleive there is so much developement in acoustics, I'd better buy those).

So, my simple question is, if I can spend let's say $800 for an amp + speaker set, and I enjoy DIYing as long as it's nothing complicated, which way shell I start? In one short question, NAD C320BEE or AudioDigit 2020 kit + PSU kit or something based around UcD180AD?

[Lostcause]

$800?...hell yeh!
Get yourself a Charlise..box it up.....

Get yourself a PS1 (playststation) the very first edition.

Get some fostex FE's ....207's work best......

A few bits and bobs for linking it all up and hey presto!!!!

OK, I may have just added a sub in there somewhere to help out the recipe but trust me ....it works!

Okay, Okay, that's simplifying it a bit, but a little attention to detail and probably another $50 on binding posts, wire and such and you will enjoy Hi-end audio...without doubt!

Welcome to audio DIY!

[rogs]

Originally posted by erozsolt
or something based around UcD180AD?

That gets my vote!

[Cloth Ears]

I don't know what the market is like in EEC for late '70s stuff, but there are some bargains to be had with the more muscular items from that period from Sansui, Pioneer, Marantz, Luxman, Yamaha and others.

This is a US valuation site for some from that era. They're not too happy driving anything that dips too much below 4ohms, but you can pick some pretty good (real) watts per dollar (or Euro) deals on older equipment.

When you've got 250W/ch, with close to 0 rise time for around $300 Australian, new stuff doesn't even come close.

My opinion only, of course...

[erozsolt]

I don't really mean vintage, I want something that sounds good for its price! I don't want high wattage monsters, I'd better build some speaker myself if it sounds better that way.

So, you say spending 400 eur to make a UcD180 is a much better idea than buying some integrated or pre/power amps from NAD or maybe old NAIM or something?

Are Charlize and 41Hz on that level, or they are generally just usable if I can built a 96+ db speaker?

For the tonality of the sound, I much like the way NOS-DACs, Audio Note systems, horn speakers and warm tube amps sound. I am used to a entrly level NAD integrated + CDP system from the 80's - nothing special but I like it's warm sound, actually I find many high-end equipment too hars and intensive for my taste. I have been suggested that I shell have a look at EPOS speakers, because of their warm tone, e.g. the M12.2, but they are only 87db sensitive, so I think I cannot use any (except some 41hz) units to drive them.

Do you suggest DIYing a sensitive speaker or choosing a more powerful amp and pair it with commercial speakers?

[Cloth Ears]

Originally posted by erozsolt
I don't really mean vintage, I want something that sounds good for its price! I don't want high wattage monsters, I'd better build some speaker myself if it sounds better that way.

erozsolt,

I wasn't suggesting that you pick up something just for the watts. Apologies if you misunderstood me. I picked up a (1981) Sansui AU-X1 for $5Aus on eBay and spent $300 having it fixed. The tech was so impressed by the sound that he created his own output driver stages for his GA7ES amp using the ones from this unit as the basis.

When being driven lightly, this unit still has excellent control of my speakers (currently Elac 510 units, with an excellent folded ribbon). And when you turn it up it is still clear and in control. I've probably heard better, but not in my own home. Considering its size, you would think I am lucky that my partner allows it in the house - but she likes the sound and puts up with the "ugly black thing" because of this.

But, DIY is also a good way to go. I wasn't trying to turn you off. I just didn't want you to think that I wanted you to buy a dinosaur just for the weight. If you have the technical ability, then a DIY amplifier would be the way to go - although I guess I'm more into MosFETs than Class D amps. And sensitive speakers generally require a better class of watt (for the first watt) than some of the smaller amplifiers can provide.

But, unless you're planning on trying to fill an exceptionally large room, I would (respecfully) suggest that you try both. By an amp 'cheaply' and also a pair of reasonable 2-ways similarly. Then build a 'better' pair of speakers to compare and then do the same with a DIY amp.

Having a basis for comparison always helps keeps you grounded when making changes. You may (eventually) never turn on the old stuff except when you change you main set-up - but it's always good to keep a "standard" to refer back to each time (even if it's to go "I can't believe I used to listen to that").

[ghemink]

Originally posted by erozsolt
I don't really mean vintage, I want something that sounds good for its price! I don't want high wattage monsters, I'd better build some speaker myself if it sounds better that way.

So, you say spending 400 eur to make a UcD180 is a much better idea than buying some integrated or pre/power amps from NAD or maybe old NAIM or something?

Are Charlize and 41Hz on that level, or they are generally just usable if I can built a 96+ db speaker?

For the tonality of the sound, I much like the way NOS-DACs, Audio Note systems, horn speakers and warm tube amps sound. I am used to a entrly level NAD integrated + CDP system from the 80's - nothing special but I like it's warm sound, actually I find many high-end equipment too hars and intensive for my taste. I have been suggested that I shell have a look at EPOS speakers, because of their warm tone, e.g. the M12.2, but they are only 87db sensitive, so I think I cannot use any (except some 41hz) units to drive them.

Do you suggest DIYing a sensitive speaker or choosing a more powerful amp and pair it with commercial speakers?

Class D does not sound good for the price, it sounds incredible good for the price. And not only for the price, so many people all over the board here have reported that recent Class D amps (like UcD) easily outperform conventional amps that cost tens of times more. Best would be if you could listen to one before you decide, not anyone in your neighborhood to give it a listen?

Best regards

Gertjan

[erozsolt]

Thank for every answer, things really got clearer in my mind!

I think the best I can do is to buy a used integrated now, like the NAD C320BEE and use it for everyday listening. This way I have time to patiently read/build a dual-mono UcD kit, and since UcDs need a preamp anyways, I can use the integrated as a preamp later. By time goes by, I might upgrade to a better pre, like the USG, or if I do some modding, I can enjoy listening even when the poweramp isn't functioning. I can even try some Triamp and Fostex combo, since I'll have a good speaker and a good amp always to compare with.

For the UcD project, does it mean I only have to buy: 2 x UcD180AD, 2 x UcD supply HG, 2 x Transformer (TR100A) and fabricate one or two nice chassis and connect some wires and I'm done? And later on I can do the mods suggested in this forum?

Although, I am a bit curious about the accident when the guy fried his amp and speakers under 10 minutes by not putting a heatsink on his amp. Does it mean, I can ruin my whole system that easily?

So, thing go clearer and clearer, I still need to select a good speaker for the UcD, first some used one (maybe in the UK), later on I can try some DIY full-range. Do you have any idea? My room is about 25 m2. Is a 87db EPOS speaker a good choise for UcD180's or I'd better look for something more sensitive?

[ghemink]

Originally posted by erozsolt
Thank for every answer, things really got clearer in my mind!

I think the best I can do is to buy a used integrated now, like the NAD C320BEE and use it for everyday listening. This way I have time to patiently read/build a dual-mono UcD kit, and since UcDs need a preamp anyways, I can use the integrated as a preamp later. By time goes by, I might upgrade to a better pre, like the USG, or if I do some modding, I can enjoy listening even when the poweramp isn't functioning. I can even try some Triamp and Fostex combo, since I'll have a good speaker and a good amp always to compare with.

For the UcD project, does it mean I only have to buy: 2 x UcD180AD, 2 x UcD supply HG, 2 x Transformer (TR100A) and fabricate one or two nice chassis and connect some wires and I'm done? And later on I can do the mods suggested in this forum?

Although, I am a bit curious about the accident when the guy fried his amp and speakers under 10 minutes by not putting a heatsink on his amp. Does it mean, I can ruin my whole system that easily?

So, thing go clearer and clearer, I still need to select a good speaker for the UcD, first some used one (maybe in the UK), later on I can try some DIY full-range. Do you have any idea? My room is about 25 m2. Is a 87db EPOS speaker a good choise for UcD180's or I'd better look for something more sensitive?

Sounds like a very good plan. That way you can also get used to the sound of the conventional amp so that the switch between conventional and UcD can be experienced by yourself. Yes, alln you need is what you listed up above. Of course you need some heatsinking but for UcD180, it is very little what you need. UcD400 may need a bit more. I`m using UcD180 modules already for about two years or so, never had any issues. Seems to be very reliable problem free modules.

Best regards

Gertjan

[ghemink]

Originally posted by ghemink



Sounds like a very good plan. That way you can also get used to the sound of the conventional amp so that the switch between conventional and UcD can be experienced by yourself. Yes, alln you need is what you listed up above. Of course you need some heatsinking but for UcD180, it is very little what you need. UcD400 may need a bit more. I`m using UcD180 modules already for about two years or so, never had any issues. Seems to be very reliable problem free modules.

Best regards

Gertjan

You may want to use one of their softstart modules as well, a dual mone supply will draw quite a bit off current during startup, although I doubt whether it is really necessary. Maybe other can comment. (I use softstarts)

Gertjan