Bgt said:Lars, received your modules today and just want to know, are there no coupling caps?Nice to have the input amp. on a socket.
I measure 2.4 ohms between input and output ground? Where is the resistor situated? pretty and small pcb
Thanx
Bert
Doesn't look like you're getting an answer. As you can see, there are no coupling caps! Also, there's no means for adjusting DC offset
2.5 ohm groundlift resistor, it's right next to the "D" in the screen printed "NewClassD".... I took mine out, and shorted the pads, makes it a little more accurate.
When you plug it into the supply, you'll be measuring about 12.5ohms instead. That's because there's yet another ground lift resistor in the supply of 10ohms. You can locate that easily enough, it's kind of all by itself on the top of the PCB. I popped that one off too, left open!
Hi Bert
Sorry i didn't see this thread, but i do appreciate you started it. I kind of think it would be nice to have an all-NewClassD thread again.
You are right, there are no coupling caps. This relies on the signal source to be free of DC comnponents, which it should be in any case. Even in case you have coupling caps, and there is a small DC component on the signal from the preamp, you would still get a loud bang, when you move the plugs. And small crackling noise when you don't. Therefore i think coupling capacitors are a half solution to a problem that is really somewhere else in the system. (And should be solved there). I hope you see the background for this design decision now
There is a Ground Lift resistor, with the purpose of being able to connect the input GND's together (in the signal source) without getting unwanted Ground loops. I can not recommend shorting them both out, even though you can short one out in the system, without risking ground loops.
Thanks for the nice comments
All the best from
Lars Clausen
Sorry i didn't see this thread, but i do appreciate you started it. I kind of think it would be nice to have an all-NewClassD thread again.
You are right, there are no coupling caps. This relies on the signal source to be free of DC comnponents, which it should be in any case. Even in case you have coupling caps, and there is a small DC component on the signal from the preamp, you would still get a loud bang, when you move the plugs. And small crackling noise when you don't. Therefore i think coupling capacitors are a half solution to a problem that is really somewhere else in the system. (And should be solved there). I hope you see the background for this design decision now
There is a Ground Lift resistor, with the purpose of being able to connect the input GND's together (in the signal source) without getting unwanted Ground loops. I can not recommend shorting them both out, even though you can short one out in the system, without risking ground loops.
Thanks for the nice comments
All the best from
Lars Clausen
Hi Lars,
The first thing I would do anyway is taking the coupling caps. out, if possible(depends on physical built of the amp. and input chip). I prefer allout DC anyway. Razorsharp bass response. If you use DC protection it is not a problem anyway.
What is the gain resistor value? I want to normalize the input sensitivity for my passive pre. About 35db is enough. Is there no offset adjuster? This because of the lm6172 which is an offset sensitive chip.
The groundlift resistor I want to experiment with.
So is there another groundlift resistor in the circuit like Chris said?
Cannot imagine what this would do? After all the only that matters is the 1 between main (supply lines of amp.)incoming 0V and input 0V(of amp.) which goes to the amp. input lines.
The first thing I would do anyway is taking the coupling caps. out, if possible(depends on physical built of the amp. and input chip). I prefer allout DC anyway. Razorsharp bass response
. If you use DC protection it is not a problem anyway.What is the gain resistor value? I want to normalize the input sensitivity for my passive pre. About 35db is enough. Is there no offset adjuster? This because of the lm6172 which is an offset sensitive chip.
The groundlift resistor I want to experiment with.
So is there another groundlift resistor in the circuit like Chris said?
Cannot imagine what this would do? After all the only that matters is the 1 between main (supply lines of amp.)incoming 0V and input 0V(of amp.) which goes to the amp. input lines.
BWRX said:
The info on GND loops when you use multiple amps on one power supply is one issue that has bothered me also. My issue: what is the best grounding in case of XLR inputs when multiple amps are connected to the same supply?
In general people say that signal GND should be connected to pin 1 of the XLR input and that pin 1 of the XLR should be connected to the case. The same people also say that the supply GND should be floating from the chassis (although this requires double isolated supplies for safety reasons I believe) for best sonic results. I also can see that point.
However, if we have multiple modules and all their signal GND are connected to pin 1 and to the chassis, we have created GND loops. One way to get rid of them is the resistor between power GND and signal GND as in the NCD modules, or likely the same effect can be achieved when connecting the signal GND with a resistor to pin 1 for amps that do not have the GND lift resistor on the module itself (UcD for example). Is there general consensus that this is a good method to prevent GND loops? Best is of course to have a dedicated power supply for each amp, leave the power supplies floating from the chassis and connect signal GND to the chassis, this is the most expensive solution though and whonder whether it is really required.
Advice/comments/ideas please
Best regards
Gertjan
Bgt said:
Hi Bert,
Thanks for the info, however, this does not look like the Hypex recommendation, they recommended to keep the power supply floating. I`m also using XLR balanced inputs while the GNDing scheme in your link is for RCA input. It may work pretty good though as those UcD differential inputs maybe quite forgiving.
Best regards
Gertjan
The best GND'ing setup for balanced input depends largely on the way the balanced output was implemented in the preamplifier.
Some use two active output with a phase reversal, and GND of both connected to pin 1. Others have a transformer with a center pin connected to pin 1. Others again have only connected pin 1 to the chassis, and have the signal pins more or less floating in relation to pin 1. The professional standard is a further different variant with several twisted pairs in one shielded cable, where the pin 1 carries only shield drain. In this case transformers in the input is more or less a 'must have'.
I can't see there is one GND setup in the power amplifier that can take all cases into account optimally.
So to make the best solution, you must first look at the way your preamplifier has implemented balanced output. But i guess this discussion is not realted to NewClassD, but balanced signalling in general.
Some use two active output with a phase reversal, and GND of both connected to pin 1. Others have a transformer with a center pin connected to pin 1. Others again have only connected pin 1 to the chassis, and have the signal pins more or less floating in relation to pin 1. The professional standard is a further different variant with several twisted pairs in one shielded cable, where the pin 1 carries only shield drain. In this case transformers in the input is more or less a 'must have'.
I can't see there is one GND setup in the power amplifier that can take all cases into account optimally.
So to make the best solution, you must first look at the way your preamplifier has implemented balanced output. But i guess this discussion is not realted to NewClassD, but balanced signalling in general.
Lars Clausen said:
Hi Lars,
You claim it optimal for DC to be taken into account elsewhere, at the source, but the source can't account for the DC offset of your module. In actual fact it probably only saves you a few pennies.. but you should be really make it very clear that it's up to the user to ensure the input is DC free.
As per the grounding:
I seriously can't recommend only having a ground lift on just one channel. To preserve all the good spatial info contained in the microdynamics they should be as error free as possible. Using the ground lifts has some smoothing effect because it creates an error voltage across them, so what the input stage see's as a signal reference ends up differing from the signal reference at the source.
Any level of hum induced by groundloops should certainly be one area, if you're at all interested in preserving signal integrity, that should most certainly be taken care of elsewhere.
In my case removing them had no difference on the level of HF noise, low frequency hum (I took care of that elsewhere, by removing your other ground lift resistor in the supply), it only helped give it a more accurate sound by ensuring the amp's signal ground shares the same reference as that of the source.
As you've said there's no possibility of a one size fits all cure, so then why would you attempt to do so with ground lift resistors when it is only going to ruin signal integrity? I think it definatly one area where you should have kept the same philisophy as you had used for the DC on the inputs problem.
By the way, I said this to Sander yesterday:
With the FC input stage decoupling caps used that you sent me, I'd really never before heard such good seperation of instruments, as if each one was carved in the air. It's too bad they have such a distasteful coloration to them, which in my view makes an otherwise excellent cap unusable.
ghemink said:
Gertjan, I've noticed the Hypex way serves well in a dual mono config(have an amp. like this also). With 1 transformer it is a totally different story. For me there was no way of getting the crosstalk and capacitive sensitivity of the input cables down. Remember I use 35db gain which makes the input more sensitive of EMI and bad grounding. And whatever Chris suggests maybe OK for him but for me it was a dead end.
I've spent hours and hours to get it right and this for me is the best setup. Scope and ears will tell you.
Bgt said:
and yet, I've done the exact same thing with the NCD, far less forgiving inputs, and a gain of 45.
You can't compensate for EMI induced crosstalk with groundlift resistors. To me that's like putting the bandaid on the floor to cover up the spilled blood, while allowing the wound to continue bleeding.
�@
Yes, but only for the woofer amps at the moment, I keep them floating, I know that may not be 100% safe so I plan in the future to use a balanced transformer in which the midtap is used as a kind of floating GND.�@This should be safe and give me balanced power at the same time.
Best regards
Gertjan
ackcheng said:
Yes, but only for the woofer amps at the moment, I keep them floating, I know that may not be 100% safe so I plan in the future to use a balanced transformer in which the midtap is used as a kind of floating GND.�@This should be safe and give me balanced power at the same time.
Best regards
Gertjan
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