I have no experience with diy amps...

[ptwining]

I have no experience with diy amps (except the dual mono UCD180 I built) so I suppose I have little room to talk - neither am I a knowledgable modder - not even an electrical engineer - so less room. Certainly less than everybody else here. I have already proven (thru ignorant posts) that I don't know anything at all. Fact.

I am however non-plussed at how quiet the UCD180 is on an 8 ohm load.

I guess I should have read more closely when I read the specs.

Pay no, NO, attention to the 4 Ohm spec (if you're a normal human being) because you'll NEVER hear it. Wanna build your own 4 ohm speakers? Fine. Otherwise be prepared for a VERY quiet amp.

Aside from the fact that this is one of the cleanest amps I have EVER heard I am bummed. A Normal set of speaks EATS the output of this amp like nobodys business.

No SPL. Period.

Nothing wrong, my UCD runs happily - all nominal.

I got a pair of Klipsch KG2's that blow the roof roof off with the UCD but they are NASTY forward - honky.

Everything else swallows the UCD down a hole. Jensen, big Klipsch, EPI's, KEF's, everything - makes the UCD180 sound small.

The UCD is one of the best amps I've ever heard - ultra clean, authoritative, but small. Wish it had more balls. I'm sorta bumming...

Am I alone in this thought?

[edit]
Don't get me wrong - I LOVE my UCD but I did expect more ZAP out of it. I suppose I saw 180 watts and ignored the rest of the text....

That's NOT what you get on a normal load folks. Half that on a good day...

My bad.

[extra edit]
Why the hell don't manufacturers quote a reasonable power level - like most of us can use - instead of some esoteric bloody level none of us can reach? Seems dishonest to me - somehow crummy... I mean, how many of you have 4 ohm speaks hanging out?

Why bother quoting it if it ain't relevant?

Hello?

[double extra edit]
Okay, so I'm annoyed. Don't take it personal like - it;s just been a long night trying to match the Klipsch KG2 efficiency. Crossover parts by the pound in the crapper...

Yes, I'm annoyed!

Damn Paul Klipsch all to pieces.

[triple edit]
Yes, yes, the Klipsch are 8 ohm speaks. OKAY? I just can't figure out how he gets 101Db out of the pile of parts in the KG2.

Damn!

[quad and last edit]
I know his drivers are extrodinarily efficient but that ain't all there is to it...

Very annoying...

Blast and damn, I wish I knew something!

Regards,
Tom

[lucpes]

Could you post the rest of your system? Ex: Source, preamplifier?

[ptwining]

My source is a dedicated multimedia PC driving an Onkyo SE90 24/192 DAC into my UCD180's.

I am frustrated because I'm building loudspeakers based on the Exodus 2641 and my reference pair of Klipsch KG2's make 1 watt sound like 50. Be that as it may the UCD still sounds very quiet.

Has anybody tested it @ 8 ohms to see what it actually puts out?

Just curious.

Regards,
Tom

[ptwining]

It's (after some research) a matter of the efficiency of my drivers. Appearantly the Extremis wants a pile of juice to make nice noise.

To quote the reviewer "If you can't bring at least 100 watts to the table, don't bother..."

My 2641 clones are running two of them in each box. Just plain power hungry, it's not my UCD's at all.

Thanks for the reply and sorry to waste your time.

Regards,
Tom

[ssmith]

Originally posted by ptwining
My source is a dedicated multimedia PC driving an Onkyo SE90 24/192 DAC into my UCD180's.

I suspect you need some extra gain between the soundcard and the Onkyo (which I understand is a PCI card). Cannot find what its specs are, but I suspect it may have a low rms output like typical soundcards, and hence you may not be driving the UCDs to full power. My bet is that a preamp with gain would fix it.

[ptwining]

Specs are hard to find for that puppy, only available in Japan (and hence all docs are in Japanese).

Thanks. I'll give the preamp idea a shot.

I appreciate you taking the time to help me out!

Regards,
Tom

[classd4sure]

No offense here Tom but with that kind of spastic post it's difficult to know exactly what you're complaint is, 180W watts @4ohms is 180W @4ohms is 180W @4ohms. I enjoy highly efficient 4 ohm speakers, BTW. I tried the 180 modules on something silly.. like 12 ohm speakers and not at all efficient. It wasnt' at all impressive. Sound was clean and everything but no way in hell you'd ever "feel the punch"..

Efficient speakers are very important to me. I find in order to get that "feels like your there" thing happening you need to FEEL it, and you should be able to feel it long before it ever gets "loud".

I find it alot more probable back in the day to simply buy speakers that were highly efficient, than it was to ever consider buying an amp that could do the same with your usual speaker..and sound good too.

I dont know jack about speaker design really, yet, but I question why it is that you're trying to emulate some other speaker.. have you heard it and did you fall in love? What you should be doing instead I think is "designing" instead of swapping parts in and out blindly hoping for results.. learn all you can about it, set your design goals and then use the tools you acquired while researching to meet them.

Anyway on my speakers the 180's are capable of pounding, if you tweak them a little. They'll never sound loud though. Do you need more gain? easy enough to know, can you get it to clip with your usual recording? If so you obviously don't need more gain, and it's easy enough to know when the stock module is clipping, very audible.

Maybe for the speakers that you're in love with you should have gotten the 400's too? It really pays to go over the data sheets and do your research before jumping in you know.

[ptwining]

180W watts @4ohms is 180W @4ohms is 180W @4ohms. I enjoy highly efficient 4 ohm speakers,

I understand

BTW. I tried the 180 modules on something silly.. like 12 ohm speakers and not at all efficient. It wasnt' at all impressive. Sound was clean and everything but no way in hell you'd ever "feel the punch"..

My situation exactly

I dont know jack about speaker design really, yet, but I question why it is that you're trying to emulate some other speaker.. have you heard it and did you fall in love?

Me neither - I'm not trying to emulate the Klipsch. I certainly don't love them. Loud and honky. What I am trying to do is understand why one nominal 8 ohm speaker outperforms another nominal 8 ohm speaker.

What you should be doing instead I think is "designing" instead of swapping parts in and out blindly hoping for results.. learn all you can about it, set your design goals and then use the tools you acquired while researching to meet them.

Exactly what I'm doing. I built the 2641's exactly according to the published design - I am not shooting from the hip anymore. My curiosity was piqued by the difference in performance between the two loudspeakers even though they are both rated as 8 ohm loads.

Do you need more gain? easy enough to know, can you get it to clip with your usual recording? If so you obviously don't need more gain, and it's easy enough to know when the stock module is clipping, very audible.

Nope, can't drive them to clip - don't want to either. Module sounds sweet and detailed. I think the UCD's have plenty of punch for me, it's my choice of speaks that makes them quiet. Perhaps I'll order the 4 ohm versions of the drivers and rebuild the crossover.

All part of the learning process. ;-)

Thanks for your reply,

Best Regards,
Tom

[classd4sure]

Yeah, so as you found the difference is in efficiency, but at the same time if you can't drive them to clipping you're not getting the full range out of them, so maybe you should look into a pre amp with more gain, or add a little more gain to the input stage of your modules.

To get more body out of it you need to tweak the modules a little though.

As far as speakers go I got mine years ago based on the type of music that I like to listen to and the levels I like to listen to them at. It's been a long road getting an amp that works them properly... and I know they aren't geared towards jazz etc.. but I don't listen to that. For everything I do listen to they perform alright. I find that's an important consideration to make when looking at speakers. They also double as home theatre these days and there's nothing like feeling the LFE in movies with them.

[ptwining]

I have distinct listening habits - (smile) - I'm old and set in my ways. I listen to some jazz but more likely Zutons or Popul Vuh (whom, by the way, I recommend as fun listens : Morning Raga by Popul Vuh - and Moons and Horror Shows by the Zutons.)

I am usually found listening to everything from loud Arabic stomp (like Khaled) to James Taylor or Train or Tool or Glenn Miller. Hard trick for an amp and speaks combination! Especially when I add George Martin's heresy to the mix with old Beatles. (That dude is crazy! Hardest mixes to reproduce decently).

Damn! No wonder I find it difficult to design speaks to make this all happen nicely.

I love my music and listen an average of three hours a day - just listening (and redesigning my system).

Anyway, this is all about the tunes. I love building stuff - (hell I was a Ferrari mechanic for The North American Racing Team when I was 19). I spent twenty years in the corporate world building real-time digital analytical systems for stock exchanges all over the world.

But the deal is the music - that's why we do this thing.

There can't be any other honest reason. It's a labor of love for what we enjoy most.

That's why I am willing to be a fool to learn what I need to know to service my need. I learned a bunch of other hard stuff - and given time - I can do this too.

Thanks for helping me - I'll get better. Watch.

(big grin)

BTW : I love heavily hopped good beer. Every once and a while I'll probably make an IPA soaked post. Hope y'all will give me some rope...

(bigger grin).

Regards,
Tom