New Module by Lars Clausen

[tinitus]

Sure, your right, we all know the sound of different instruments...a trick of the mind....a constructed imitation of our own conception....and we can recall it WHEN we hear it

Just try and clear your head in absolute silence, and think of different kinds of sound....and what do you hear....nothing....I hope

As I recall you listened to Nuforce, and I bet you believe you can remember how it sounded....no, what you remember are your thougts and feelings about it....and yes, you remember the sound once you hear it again

But of course you can judge if its good, better or worse, I dont deny that

And then there is this unexplainable "foottapping" factor....is it real or "fake", or maybe both.

[classd4sure]

Personally I aim for the "true to the source" as much as possible, and so endure many a bad recording.

The euphoric fingerprint isn't so bad though?

I guess it's just another area where nothing is so polar that you can't enjoy a middle ground.

Yup, in my opinion Lars' NCD is not the most true to the source I've heard, but has good qualities and I find it very enjoyable.

[classd4sure]

Yep the foottapping factor as you say is what I refer to as being musical, if it is enjoyable or not.

Nope, I've never heard a nuforce. (whew)

[noah katz]

Chris,

"Yeah, I'm thinking so, depending on the amps and my level of familiarity with them."

? I know you say *you* can tell the difference between amps, but my question was, is the difference easily measureable.

As another way of stating my point, I think Hafler's null test (sum the input with opposite polariy output which has been padded to the same level) on any competent amp would give an output tens of dB down, where I'd expect only several dB from doing that with different voices, engines, etc.

[classd4sure]

Oh, I see. We're talking about distinguishing measurements now.

"Can you say the same about different amps that have the same freq response to within a fraction of a dB and fractions of a % distortion?"

See now I thought you were trying to say "if for all intensive purposes, they measure the same, can you then audibly distinguish them", but as you've corrected me, I see it's solely the measurement results you're interested in, and you don't care about the sound anymore.

If you don't find your measurements reliable enough to know if the results are meaningful, then I don't see you distinguishing them based on measurements alone... maybe you should try listening.

Tell me how you propose accurately doing a hafler null test on crying babies or Ford Mustang exhaust notes without introducing additional error? I'd obviously agree with your prediction on that, I think I question the reasoning though, and at this point, more so the motive.

I think we're on different worlds anyway... look, I'm waving...see me?

[soongsc]

Originally posted by noah katz


...As another way of stating my point, I think Hafler's null test (sum the input with opposite polariy output which has been padded to the same level) on any competent amp would give an output tens of dB down, where I'd expect only several dB from doing that with different voices, engines, etc.

Here is the actual device that was used to perform the test. I actually used a true rms meter to monitor the difference where the headphone is supposed to be located, but with current computer testing technilogy, it's not difficult to actually do a frequency difference test.

[soongsc]

And here is how it's hooked up internally. I think it would even be technically possible to automate the process to adjust the volume portion to the lowest difference.

[classd4sure]

So just for argumentative purposes if one were to do this hafler test with a crying baby or exhaust note... and compare the precision of doing it with an amp, I propose you use the very same microphone to measure the output of the amp at the speaker in a controlled environment I'd expect the same db or two difference.

Don't mess with my analogies

[noah katz]

I'm just trying to hang on to any vestiges of reason; since you're an engineer (right?), I thought you'd have a similar inclination.

It's one thing to say our ear/brain is a marvelous system capable of discerning nuances we cannot measure; I'll accept that possibility.

But it's not reasonable to make the comparison of amps different amps vs different voices.

I guess your prickly reaction to that means you disagree, which baffles me.

[classd4sure]

Ok.. let's both not take things too out of context.

That analogy was a bit of an exagerated argument to the statement:

"You have no memory of sound quality, what so ever, not even how the sound was yesterday".

I'm pretty sure you do. Listen to two amps of fairly different characteristics (they obviously don't sound the same from the start, so it becomes irrelevant how they may measure), aaaand you're making a conscious effort to note any differences, you'll be able to comment on it a month or a year later. If you accept that, then obviously there's a memory for sound quality, at least as much as there is for anything else you experience.

I guess you're going on the basis that one amp doesn't sound very different than the next, especially if they measure extremely close. Honestly, I haven't tried to know! As you said before, that's a topic worthy of its own thread/research/experiments/discussion.

It would depend on alot of factors I'm sure. Really though, I'm just a little frustrated because I don't see the relevance to any such comments here. No two amps I discuss here measure the same for one thing (I'm guessing), and they clearly do have a fairly different character, period.

I appreciate your clarifying your position for me btw, I hope I've done the same for you.

Cheers

PS: I'm not an engineer, just a hack, and of the line of thinking that if every possible factor were accounted for via measurement I'd think they would sound the same. I dont' go for the magic stuff.

PSS: Pricklyness is due to 4 hours sleep and pre coffee posting. My bad. Sorry