heat sink for UCD700?

[Ric Schultz]

You use the word voodoo for anything that crosses the line of your imagined reality. You do listen to caps....some would say that is voodoo. How about wires...too voodoo for you?..I know you can say that caps have lower impedance and dissipation factor, inductance, etc. So maybe there is some science as to why caps sound different. Let me give you an example that will have you spilling your coffee. A friend of mine wanted to have some custom polystyrene caps made (1uf 100V) for use in his mods on the Acoustat electrostats. He got some tin foil, some wire he liked and some solder he liked and sent it off to 5 different cap manufacturers. So, they all wound the caps using probably the same German polystyrene, the very same tin foil, the very same solder and the very same wire....you know what I am going to say....they all sounded different....oops there goes the coffee. No doubt, you will try to imagine why this is so. I will leave that up to your mind.

Actually ignorance means the lack of knowing something. Knowledge is not a bunch of facts and thoughts and opinions in your head. It is the direct experience of something using ALL your senses. Can you trust what you hear? Does it always have to make sense? I would say you are ignorant of the possibilities of damping. You would say I am Mr. Voodoo. The labeling allows the righteous dismissing of what you do not want to deal with.....what if you had the guts and open mind to try the heatsink thing and heard a difference.....you would not want to be wrong! would you?....so you would not even try it. And since your ego is holding that it cannot make a difference so strongly, you probably would not allow yourself to hear it.

There is this guy that does not believe that wires sound different. He thinks that amps sound different, but not wires. He has befriended a budding audiophile and as tried to impress his opinion on him. Both of them are invited to a home where they are listening on highly modified electrostats. At one point they take out two interconnects to A/B....the non believer runs into the kitchen and closes the door. The budding audiophile stays to see what this is about. The three all agree totally on the sound difference between the cables....this story is real...it happened.

Many engineering types are very ignorant of things that can make a sonic difference because anything outside of their little mental box is considered Voodoo, or whatever. Not everything in sound can be explained or measured, at least not at this time.

I do not dismiss good engineering. However, I do not dismiss using an open mind to try things that people say makes a difference. Most people do not make stuff up and put it on a forum and then create a product out of it. They actually listened and heard something....now sometimes they are fooling themselves (a minority of the time....you would say nearly all the time) but mostly they heard something that is repeatable.

I TRUST my own experience and I honor and respect the EXPERIENCE of others. I never put down anyone who is describing what they heard. If you said that blue nail polish on resistors made the sound more cool...he he...than I would take you on your word. I would not say..."you are crazy...you did not take your meds....utter nonsense". I may not want to buy some blue nail polish but I might....he he.

I am sure these few words will do little to turn you into a free thinking and experimental/experiential person. Tweaking is best left to those without preconceptions.....this is true science...not to prove something is right, but to find out what is possible....true scientific exploration.

You do.....the Voodoo....that I love so well....cha cha cha

[SSassen]

Ric,

It is not the fact that you believe that the 'voodoo' is real it is your ill conceived comments that us 'engineering types' can't think out of the box or are close-minded.

Such is not the case, but we weigh far more factors than you, especially because we have that engineering background, which gives us a better insight into what works and what doesn't.

I'll agree with you on almost anything but will quickly add that cables, or any other component, doesn't have magic properties that seem to challenge the laws of physics.

If you hear differences between cables I will most likely comment that this due to that fact that its reduced, or increased, capacitance per feet is interacting with, for example, your amplifier.

You're trying to 'optimize' your system by using the most influential set of equipment there is; your ears and your brain. Us engineering types like to take at least part of that out of the equation by controlling some of the parameters in the equation. I.e. use an amplifier with known specs, similar for loudspeakers, etc. etc.

You on the other hand spend countless hours evaluating something without a benchmark of any kind, or any idea what the equipment is actually doing to the signal provided by the source.

I know it is a hobby for you, and with your current 'evaluation method' will keep you busy indefinitely, but us engineering types like to take a few shortcuts. Hence we use the laws of physics and some math to make greater strides and cover significantly more ground to reach our audio nirvana.

And that, my friend, is the voodoo that we do ...

Best regards,

Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com

[classd4sure]

Originally posted by SSassen
Ric,

It is not the fact that you believe that the 'voodoo' is real it is your ill conceived comments that us 'engineering types' can't think out of the box or are close-minded.

Such is not the case, but we weigh far more factors than you, especially because we have that engineering background, which gives us a better insight into what works and what doesn't.

I'll agree with you on almost anything but will quickly add that cables, or any other component, doesn't have magic properties that seem to challenge the laws of physics.

If you hear differences between cables I will most likely comment that this due to that fact that its reduced, or increased, capacitance per feet is interacting with, for example, your amplifier.

You're trying to 'optimize' your system by using the most influential set of equipment there is; your ears and your brain. Us engineering types like to take at least part of that out of the equation by controlling some of the parameters in the equation. I.e. use an amplifier with known specs, similar for loudspeakers, etc. etc.

You on the other hand spend countless hours evaluating something without a benchmark of any kind, or any idea what the equipment is actually doing to the signal provided by the source.

I know it is a hobby for you, and with your current 'evaluation method' will keep you busy indefinitely, but us engineering types like to take a few shortcuts. Hence we use the laws of physics and some math to make greater strides and cover significantly more ground to reach our audio nirvana.

And that, my friend, is the voodoo that we do ...

Best regards,

Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com

Most excellent reply I must say.

Ignorance wears many faces Ric. It's also the willingness to so quickly and blindly take the defensive and maintain your position in the face of real factual knowledge and experience which is based on science and physics, the measurable, and the repeatable.

Hm, can I think of an example for you? How about "creationsism" Vs evolution, now appearing in courts near you (true story).

So Ric, maybe you tried this with smacking an electrolytic as hard as you can, heard a bit of a thump, or discovered microphonics in poorly chosen cables or designed systems, and blindly applied it to everything?

Did you have enough faith in your convictions to repeat the experiment with the UCD module with an open mind orrrrr just reach for the rich looking plate of brass? Be honest.

Let's just say you did so, did you realize it would be running hotter due to less efficient thermal conduction, and perhaps, just perhaps, the physical retributions of that would better explain any sonic differences? It takes some out of the voodoo box thinking to have thought of that possibility though doesn't it?

Five caps rolled by five guys or even manufacturing processes sound different.... I'm shocked. I'll note that you neglected to state whether or not they all measured the same (very unlikely they would have).


" or any idea what the equipment is actually doing to the signal provided by the source."

My friend, I built a DIY UCD without so much as a scope, using nothing but my ears and my ideas as how the signals interract with the equipment. I have a good idea what's going on, and I dare you to try the same by using your method of ears only and neglecting the workings behind it.

You're absolutly right that I am not going to open my mind to the extent that I'd blindly accept your average commercial marketting add without wanting to question the thought process that was behind it.

I'd bet you money I could make a small killing selling audiophile grade window tint to the ignorant of the world but in the end it won't make my amps sound much better.

Glad to see you're sticking around anyway.

Chris

[Ric Schultz]

I personally think that nerdy engineer types like yourself actually have far far less factors to consider because you think you know it all...already. No, engineering will not give the best sound all by itself....this is your mistake...the logical dualistic mindset is linked to the ego and righteousness...you need to use your heart/ear brain more.

You are in the minority as far as the sound of cables goes (among high end audiophiles)....it is back to the engineer versus the listener once again....your benchmarks are merely blips on a machine. They mean very little to what the ear hears. "known specs"....most all amps have flat frequency response, but they all sound different....you are just trying to rationalize your narrow minded thinking.....dismissing my 30 years of listening/tweaking/designing/testing and selling countless products to satisfied customers....this is more than a hobby....this is my passion and I make a living doing it. Customers get to hear the results of all my "tweakings"....they like it. Of course, my customers are all from the "dark side" and believe things like "cables sound different''......oh my god....what a concept!

Back to my Voodoo that I do so well.

I am sure one of you will want the last word, so have at it. I am closed on this issue. More fun mods to the UCD modules tonight, oh boy!

[classd4sure]

Like I was saying...

WWWWWWWwhhoooooooooooooooossssssshhhhhhhhhhh!!

You've just got a pair of blinders on that won't be smacked off you, I'm afraid you won't be seeing the light today. Speaking of which, I have this window tint for you to audition..

[Eva]

Vodoo is to make a class-D amplifier work from scratch (and not a radio transmitter or a smoke bomb ), particularly when you try to avoid copying previous art.

On the other hand, playing with exotic capacitors and wires as if they were toys and imagining a lot of things that don't really happen (while overlooking what actually happens) is something that even my 3 year old brother can do better than any of those audiophiles.

If you don't like engineering, why do you use engineered modules and components? Damn, next time build your own stuff from scratch (according to your statements, all what you need is just a couple of ears ).

Blame engineers if you want... You all need engineers as much as children need toy manufacturers

[MOER]

Ric,

its like those "audiophiles" who believe that adding in their $900.00 IEC power cord make the sound better. Simple question here. How do you double blind A-B compare two power cables?

The brain does not have the ability to "remember" the difference between two components that are so close if the time between comparisons is more than just a few seconds. This has been proved time and time again.

Second question, how can say 2 metres of fancy schmancy power cable affect the sound when you have perhaps many many kilometres of you power cable from the wall plug to the power station transformer with so many breakers in between.

This is voodooo.

My same question is posed to those who try different capacitors/resistors in equipment.

HOW DO THEY SWITCH THEM IN AND OUT TO DO A DOUBLE BLIND A-B COMPARISON?

The answer is simple. They cannot do this. So a lot of this is voooodoooo.

The power of the double blind test is powerful.

Those pesky fancy RCA cables are more voodoooo. The capacitance of typical cheap shielded cable is so low that any respectable preamplifier has ZERO trouble driving just a few hundred pico Farads anyway.

I do agree that long lengths of high inductive speaker cable can roll the high end off but you would need many metres of very poor speaker cable to do this.

[classd4sure]

Going alllll the way over to the other extreme thinking everything needs double blind testing or listening results are useless is equally pushing the envelope of ignorance I'm afraid. Plenty of differences are obvious enough there's no need at all for something like a double blind test..

As if you'd really think the brain can't retain how something sounds for more than a few seconds either.. were that the case we'd be debating which log sounded best when we beat on it with the bones of our defeated adversaries.

[Portlandmike]

Originally posted by Ric Schultz
Yes, the chassis is plenty good by itself, however for best sound you should damp the module. By using a dissimilar material layer in conjuction with the chassis you will reduce the ringing and audible effects of the chassis. In my commercial UCD amps I use one quarter inch thick brass inside the chassis and then the alluminum chassis outside layer. You could experiment with brass screws as well but these are very hard to find in metric sizes here in the US.

Regular heatsinks suck big time. Resonating machines. Take any amp that has external heatsinks and damp the heatsinks with damping material along the edges of the fins so they no longer ring when you run your fingernail along them.....WAY better sound.

Ric,

You bring up an interesting point that I hadn't thought about. I recently changed the chassis of my UcD's to a Denon PCM 2000 IVR. The chassis of the denon has damping material all over the place. On every surface practically. The heatsinks are very well damped by a tar like material sandwiched with another plate.

This I will say, that chassis change made more difference to sound than any mode I ever did on the board!
Was it damping or IE vs Toriod or dual bridges, differnt bypass caps... or all fo the above I'm not sure but I had ignored the damping.

Some of us are still wise enough not to dismiss things just becuase we don't understand how it could matter. AT one point, I couldn't see how wire could matter. Some still don't or think its all explainable. Fine for them. I've heard stuff I can't measure to many times. The voodoo is what I really like about audio.

That's the difference between great and ordinary audio.

Sorry to read your getting beat up here for using your ears. Hope you don't get find better things than thow your pearls before swine, but frankly....

Originally posted by classd4sure
Hi,

"p.s. Does anybody know where aluminium oxide insulators are available in small quantities?"

I'm fairly certain you'll find two on the UCD400, the 180 uses plastic transistor cases.

Also, the T sink is well decoupled for EMI. These are very well engineered modules.

It would seem there's good reason to stick to engineering after all.

I don't doubt the existance of the piezoelectric effect, but it's already mechanically damped by bolting the mosfet to the heatsink. I do have serious doubts even in worse case this would translate into audible artifacts through the speakers, measurable or otherwise. I can't really see this happening to any worrysome degree with a product such as thermasil pads either?

You just have to draw the line somewhere I guess. Is it still OK to listen to an amp that's placed in light intensive environments... or can I find some audiophile window tint?

Also, keep in mind the filter core itself is magneto-restrictive, I could believe that translating itself into audible artifacts loooong before flicking my finger over a heatsink, but I wouldn't even go so far as to say that "that's" why an aircore sounds better.

Excellent post btw.

Chris,

FYI,
The latest 6.1 rev of the UcD400 uses rather thick ceramic insulators under the fets. I'd say they are 1mm or more!

I'd assume this is to further decouple fets from the heat sink and thus the chassis.

Mechanical stress on parts is one of the key problems for IC manufactures making high accuaracy "DC" parts. Offset of op amps and references, especialy surface mount, are affected by die stresses. That's why you will never see a top grade reference in the SOT23 for example. Not saying this is it, but if it is a reason for improved sound... there are lots of possibilities.

Makes me think I shouldn't ignore the pcb mounting holes on the UcD!
When will I get to that!


Mike

[classd4sure]

Mike, I have silver, bronze, and limo, all audiophile grade!

I'd already mentioned the use of the ceramic isolators used in the UCD and that the reasons stated behind them were better thermal conduction.

Bruno or Jan-Peter are more than welcome to correct me on that if I'm wrong. I'd love to hear it was for mechanical damping.

I can assure you the differences you heard were from the different supply.

Being a commercial amp the black tar used was more likely to save on screws, although, it's not at all uncommon for commercial junk to buy into voodoo, they invented it after all.