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Old 8th March 2006, 04:02 PM   #11
Bruno Putzeys is offline Bruno Putzeys  Europe
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: BE/NL/RW/ZA
I find in practice that having 2x4700uF power supply capacitance is sufficient to support 10Hz without adverse effects. Most people round here have much more than that in their supplies!

Where it makes sense to have some countermeasure is when using an SMPS that has all storage capacitance on the primary side. Many of these supplies don't even like having anything more than a few 100uF on the secondary side. In this case, pumping is a real issue.
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Old 9th March 2006, 05:58 AM   #12
ssanmor is offline ssanmor  Spain
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Location: Madrid
I fully agree with Bruno (as almost ever)

You can see lots of SMPS's out there where output capacitance is ridiculous and the designers feel justified by just adding feedback (or conversely, they add only a few uF at the output because they are not able to make the feedback loop stable with more capacitance).
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Old 9th March 2006, 12:56 PM   #13
ghemink is offline ghemink  Netherlands
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Japan
Originally posted by ssanmor
I am a bit surprised about why people really cares so much about bus supply pumping. IMHO it is not a problem in practice.
I have been testing a lot of class-D amplifiers at quite high power levels (up to 1300W in bridge-mode) with reasonable capacitance in the (linear) PSU (2x20000uF or so) and NEVER had any problems with bus pumping, even with large power at low frequency (_BIG_ PA subwoofers)
żżż ???

With a SMPS you won't have problems either if it is regulated and is properly designed, I bet you definitely don't need the switched voltage balancer. Our SPS80 PSU (that is being produced and will become available in a month or so :-) performs very well in this aspect too and you won't see the rails increasing. It has 6600uF per rail output capacitance.

Perhaps Ghemink can also tell us his experience, as he did some deep tests with a SMPS on audio amplifiers, and the PSU he used (K6 SMPS) had very low output capacitance (2x470uF per rail if I recall ok).

Any comments?

Yes, a comment from my side. I actually never used the K6 SMPS supply with that 2x470uF, I modified the feedback loop and added more caps. Besides that, I also used the amps for the woofers in a kind of bridged way. Meaning, the left and right woofer channel sharing the same supply but I'm running both amps out of phase, so in most of the cases (at low frequencies), each amp will pump in the opposite direction. In the my final setup, I plan to use 2 amps for each channel to drive the two woofers per channel. Either in bridge or out of phase to avoid any risk of pumping. I know, I maybe overly cautious, anyway it won't hurt and hypex won't complain as they could sell me more modules that way :-)

In your case with 6600uF per rail there should be no problem. Can't wait to check out your SMPS.

Best regards

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Old 13th August 2007, 11:25 PM   #14
Portlandmike is offline Portlandmike  United States
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Originally posted by Bruno Putzeys
Any half bridge power stage driven by a *fixed* duty cycle and its "output" (after the inductor of course) shorted to ground will do.

Hi Bruno,

Seems like going balanced output would be a better choice than doing something like a load balancer?
The pumping issue seems to be a mess for a off line switcher since it will go out of regulation unless you can suck current out of the UCD supplies.

I'd think if sticking to single ended, that generating two loosly regulated outputs (perhaps clark converters for PFC) and then a sync buck regulator for each rail would be ideal. That's lots of stuff though. Seems like a balanced/bridged output would be a better cleaner solution.
At any rate, I seems you need some way to store pumping energy and PFC might be a way.

I look forward to seeing SMPS implementation that beats big iron though.
Maybe you should just make a UCD that runs directly off the line! ;>)

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